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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 8, 2017 13:51:08 GMT -5
A few things in Brushy Bill’s story are correct. The names of his wives are correct, although there is no evidence that William Henry Roberts, or Brushy Bill Roberts was the spouse of Mollie Roberts, Loutecia Ballard, or Melinda E. Allison. Brushy Bill said Mollie died in 1919. That is correct. He said that Mollie Brown was from Coleman County, a member of the old Brown family of Brownwood. He was half right. Mollie Brown had lived in Coleman County. Her father was John Martin Brown, born in Georgia. John came to Texas about 1855 and was living in Titus County in the 1860 and 1870 census years. He married Nancy Gipson about 1875, and they lived in Franklin County in 1880, where Mary A. (Mollie) and her twin sister, Mary Frances Brown were born. By 1900, the John Martin Brown family had moved to Coleman County.
Mollie’s younger brother, Martin Chester Brown, moved to Chaves County, New Mexico, where he and his wife were living in the 1930 and 1940 census years. He is buried in the Hagerman Cemetery.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 8, 2017 15:22:20 GMT -5
I've never quite understood the fascination with whether Brushy was married to those women mentioned. The marriages are a matter of public record. There is no question whether a man who called himself Oliver or Ollie Roberts was married to Mollie Roberts, Louteica Ballard and Melinda E. Allison. The question is, "was that man living under a fake identity at the time he married those women?" Was he the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts or was he someone else? I don't think a review of those women and their families will ever answer that question. There is a question regarding marriages that might shed some light on the truth however. The first marriage attributed to Oliver Roberts was never mentioned by Brushy. Can we prove beyond the shadow of a doubt it was Brushy himself that was married to Anna? If you can prove that then you may have the proverbial "smoking gun".
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 8, 2017 19:14:02 GMT -5
You are correct, Wayne. The marriages are a matter of public record. Let’s just say there really was a man named Oliver P. Roberts. Why did Brushy Bill use the name of Oliver Roberts, or O. L. Roberts when he married Mollie Brown and Melinda Allison? Why did he buy and sell land in Arkansas as O. P. Roberts? Why did he sign Lutecia’s death certificate as Ollie Roberts? Was it necessary for Brushy Bill to pretend to be Oliver P. Roberts? Was William Henry Roberts famous? Is there any mention in published literature of William Henry Roberts as the real name of Billy the Kid prior to 1949? Why did Brushy Bill say in his WWI registration card he was born the exact same day that Oliver P. Roberts was born? Why did he report his age in the 1920 and the 1930 census as the same age as Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson? Why did Brushy Bill say Martha Heath was his cousin when she was the half-sister of Oliver P. Roberts? The gun is still smoking.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 8, 2017 20:29:19 GMT -5
What I'm getting from your post is basically an assertion that since William Henry Roberts was not known to be Billy The Kid there was no real reason not to use that name. Actually he did have reason to use Oliver Roberts name rather than his own, other than not being discovered as Billy The Kid. Sarah Elizabeth thought he was Oliver and he went along with that. Once he had become known in the community as Oliver Roberts it certainly would have been difficult to change that. There were no civil records of his real identity, his true lineage, etc. Using the name of the disappeared Oliver Roberts was simpler and safer.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 9, 2017 20:17:29 GMT -5
“Sarah Elizabeth thought he was Oliver and he went along with that. Once he had become known in the community as Oliver Roberts it certainly would have been difficult to change that. There were no civil records of his real identity, his true lineage, etc. Using the name of the disappeared Oliver Roberts was simpler and safer.”
There certainly was a reason why Brushy Bill married Mollie Brown as Oliver Roberts. That was his birth name. No surprise that Sarah Elizabeth Roberts accepted Brushy Bill as her son, because he was. Just like there is no proof that Billy the Kid was alive after the night of July 14, 1881, there is no proof that Oliver P. Roberts “disappeared” from Van Zandt County about 1911. Assume Brushy Bill was who he claimed to be, and had actually assumed the identity of Oliver Roberts in the county where Oliver P Roberts and his parents resided. Wouldn’t acquaintances of Oliver Roberts notice he had aged 20 years overnight? Wouldn’t they notice he was physically different; shorter or taller, heavier or thinner, different eye color? Then again, maybe Brushy Bill only ventured out in the dark.
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Post by mckinley412 on Mar 10, 2017 11:17:38 GMT -5
More importantly, we should be looking at Brushy's girlfriends!!! For example, if we found out he was dating Adriana Garcia or that he had a crush on Sallie Chisum!!! Also, you bring up an excellent question! How come Sarah Elizabeth couldn't tell the 20 year difference between her real son and the impostor? The best answer I can come up with is the footnote at the bottom of page 61, ABTK. 2. Dewitt Travis, of Longview, Texas, a lifelong friend of the Roberts family, say's Ollie's mother and father "died thinking Bill was their son--but he was not" (Travis to Morrison, April 9, 1951).
I'm thinking Brushy's story holds up pretty well and it's usually when someone else chimes in that the story gets out of whack. If I knew for certain that this story came from Brushy I would seriously doubt his credibility, but for now it looks more to me like the story of the family believing he was the real Ollie may have just came from Dewitt Travis. The family probably knew he wasn't the real Ollie. Where they got the story on page 60 about Ollie being born in '67 and running away in '84 is another question. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd be willing to drop Brushy Bill like a 10- gallon hat if I could find a reason, but his story holds up too well to be just an old man good at spinning a yarn. Now if we let Dewitt Travis tell the official version then I could see it ending up with more holes in it than a jackalope on the opposite side of Billy's smoke-wagon.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 11, 2017 0:52:22 GMT -5
As for Henry and Sarah Elizabeth believing Brushy was their son, I think there was likely some intentional cover up by them and the rest of Oliver's family. I also think there was some confusion as to exactly who Brushy was suppose to be. Remember he used a different middle initial than Oliver P. and as for the age difference, Brushy allegedly appeared much younger than his real age. I know, I know, some will say that's nonsense, but I met a man once who appeared to be in his 70,s who turned out to actually be 101. I've also known people who looked much older than their real age. You can't always guess a person's age based on appearance and that is simply a fact.
But what about Anna White? Can it be proven that the man she was married to was indeed Brushy Bill and not a different, real, Oliver Roberts?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 12, 2017 21:21:09 GMT -5
"But what about Anna White? Can it be proven that the man she was married to was indeed Brushy Bill and not a different, real, Oliver Roberts? "
Can it be proven she was married to either one?
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 13, 2017 11:33:37 GMT -5
It can certainly be proven she was married to someone going by the name of Oliver Roberts. I just don't think that person was Brushy Bill.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 13, 2017 13:50:34 GMT -5
"But what about Anna White?"
Van Zandt County marriage,11 July 1909. O. P. Roberts and Anna Lee
Van Zandt divorce decree, 10 November 1910. O. P. Roberts and Annie Roberts
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 13, 2017 20:32:54 GMT -5
mckinley412, there is good reason to doubt information provided by DeWitt. DeWitt Travis (born about 1890 in Texas) signed an affidavit that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Had he seen William Bonney before 1881 if he was born in 1890?
DeWitt Travis signed an affidavit for J. Frank Dalton. He said Dalton, was a Quantrill guerrilla, helped move his mother’s family to safety before the Battle of Jenkins Ferry. General Frederick Steele’s Union army fought off General Edmund Kirby Smith’s Confederate army 30 April 1864 at Jenkins Ferry. No mention of Quantrill’s guerrillas at the battle.
DeWitt’s mother was Martha Ann Patterson. Her parents were Duncan Patterson and Loucretia. They lived in Claiborne Parish, Louisiana, in 1850 and 1860. Martha Ann married DeWitt Travis Sr. in 1873 in Navarro County. Did they ever live in Arkansdas?
DeWitt said, “My father and Brushy Bill’s father served together under Quantrill during the Civil War.” Elbert Elbert D. Travis Sr. enlisted 15 Aug 1864 at Augusta, MS, served 9 months in Co. C, 3rd Battalion, Mississippi Cavalry, discharged 16 May 1865 at the age of 18. No record of service with Quantrill.
DeWitt said, “My mother, Martha Ann Patterson and Brushy Bill’s mother were girlhood friends – in fact, friends through life.”
Martha Ann Patterson was born in Claiborne Parish, Louisiana. If it was Mary Adeline Dunn to whom DeWitt referred, Brushy said she was born in Kentucky and died in Texas when he was about 2. Lifelong friends?
If it was Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, born in Arkansas and mother of Oliver P. Roberts, to whom DeWitt referred, she lived in Sebastian County AR, in 1880 while Martha still lived in Claiborne Parish, Louisiana, in 1860 before she moved to Van Zandt County, TX, in 1880. In 1900, Sarah lived in Hopkins County, TX, while Martha lived in Van Zandt County, TX.
DeWitt said, “I have known Brushy Bill intimately all my life.”
DeWitt was born ca. 1890. If DeWitt’s first memory of Brushy were when he was eight years old, DeWitt would remember these events: 1898 - Brushy enlisted in the Rough Riders in Muscogee, Oklahoma. 1899 - Brushy was discharged and returned to Mexico shortly before President Diaz seized the ranch and all the livestock. 1902 - Brushy started a wild-west show that ran for 2 years. 1904 - Brushy went to Van Zandt County, Texas. 1905 - Brushy went to the Indian Territory where he traded horses and cattle. 1907 - Brushy returned to Mexico and with two partners, started the Three Bar ranch. 1910 - Brushy fought in the Mexican revolution with Carranza and Pancho Villa; at one time in command of 106 men.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 15, 2017 21:13:17 GMT -5
"But what about Anna White? Can it be proven that the man she was married to was indeed Brushy Bill and not a different, real, Oliver Roberts?”
Wayne, I guess you meant Anna Lee, not Anna White. Although Hefner and Valdez guessed that her name was Anna White, only a marriage to Anna Lee has been found in the Van Zandt County marriage records. After she was divorced by Oliver Roberts, she married Jesse Lecil Barnes. They were the parents of 3 children. Jesse and Anna are both buried in High Cemetery in Van Zandt County.
When Oliver divorced Annie, one of the 1910 Van Zandt county divorce papers was signed by both O. P. Roberts and H. O. Roberts, indicating that Anna Lee married Oliver P. Roberts.
Less than 2 years after his first marriage ended in divorce, Oliver P. Roberts married Mary A. “Mollie” Brown of Coleman County in 1912 in Van Zandt county.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 15, 2017 22:14:47 GMT -5
TTT,
If anyone is capable it's probably you. So again, is there a way to "prove" that the Oliver Roberts married to Anna Lee (White) was the same man as the Oliver Roberts (Brushy) that married Mollie Brown? I know it seems logical that he was but can it be proven? I'm sure you know this is a very important point. Thanks.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 16, 2017 18:31:20 GMT -5
“So again, is there a way to "prove" that the Oliver Roberts married to Anna Lee (White) was the same man as the Oliver Roberts (Brushy) that married Mollie Brown?”
Prove to your satisfaction, no. Evidence, yes.
Evidence that Brushy Bill married Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison: 1. Morrison referred to Brushy Bill as Ollie L. Roberts, and O. L. Roberts. 2. Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison. 3. The Hamilton County marriage license is for O. L. Roberts and Melinda Allison. 4. The Hamilton County death certificate is for Ollie Roberts (with a date of birth of 31 December 1868 which is also wrong).
Evidence that Oliver P. Roberts married Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison: 1. O. P. Roberts married Anna Lee in Van Zandt County 11 July 1909. 2. Oliver and Anna lived in Van Zandt County when the 1910 census was recorded. 3. Henry O. Oliver and his wife lived in Van Zandt County when the 1910 census was recorded. 4. O. P. Roberts divorced Annie Roberts in Van Zandt County 10 November 1910. 5. Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown 21 August 1912 in Van Zandt County. 6. Oliver Roberts registered for the WWI draft 12 September 1918 in Little River County, AR: next of kin, Mollie Roberts; residence, Arkinda, AR; date of birth, 26 August 1878; full name Oliver Pleasant Roberts. 7. Henry O. and Elizabeth Roberts lived in Arkinda, AR, when the 1920 census was recorded. The family of his son Tom was enumerated on the same census page. 8. Tom Roberts, wife Mattie, and children Elizabeth, Herbert, Theodore and Geneva were listed immediately before Henry and Elizabeth. 9. Geneva Roberts Pittmon, niece of Oliver P. Roberts, in her letter of 16 December 1987, wrote to Joe Bowlin and provided the following information: “Oliver P. Roberts was Brushy Bill’s name.” “He was born 26 August 1879.” 10. The WWI birth date provided by Oliver Pleasant Roberts and the birth date of Oliver P. Roberts provided by Geneva Roberts Pittmon are identical. The 1878 birth year on the WWI draft registration card should have been 1879 as shown in the 1900 census report. Oliver P. Roberts was living in his parents’ household in Hopkins County, and his birth was reported as August 1879. 11. No 1910, 1911, or 1912 death certificate for Oliver, Oliver P., or O. P. Roberts has been found. 12. No grave for Oliver, Oliver P. or O. P. Roberts has been found with a death year of 1910, 1911, or 1912. 13. No WWI draft registration card for another Oliver Roberts, born between 1877 and 1880 has been found. 14. See page 35 of “Billy the Kid and Me Were The Same”, by William A. Tunstill. A granddaughter showed Tunstill a picture of her grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts hanging the wall in her living room. Tunstill said, “I thought that was Brushy Bill’s mother. The same picture was illustrated on page 58 in Sonnichsen’s book.”
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 16, 2017 21:35:58 GMT -5
Well, I got to give credit where credit is due and you deserve credit for being right about one thing at least. That evidence doesn't "prove" it. So the debate goes on.
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