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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 8, 2018 14:47:32 GMT -5
So you've changed your mind earlier you posted:
"Martile was neither a fraud or a liar"
And now you say:
"I do not believe anything that Martile said in her affidavit, or in her additional statements found in "Alias Billy the Kid", unless those statements are verified with credible evidence."
So now you think she "is" a liar and/or a fraud?
Your statements contradict each other. Do you not see that? Maybe you should just say you "misspoke" about her not being a liar and just leave it at that? Then we can discuss my original premise that it is wrong to insist someone get every single fact correct and include all pertinent data in order to be believed about "anything".
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 8, 2018 16:16:55 GMT -5
So you've changed your mind earlier you posted: "Martile was neither a fraud or a liar" And now you say: "I do not believe anything that Martile said in her affidavit, or in her additional statements found in "Alias Billy the Kid", unless those statements are verified with credible evidence." So now you think she "is" a liar and/or a fraud? Your statements contradict each other. Do you not see that? Maybe you should just say you "misspoke" about her not being a liar and just leave it at that? Then we can discuss my original premise that it is wrong to insist someone get every single fact correct and include all pertinent data in order to be believed about "anything". I have already said that some information attributed to Martile Able is correct: her approximate age, county of birth, name of her 2nd husband, marriage place, residence in Abilene, residence in El Paso.
In her sworn affidavit, Martile said that she cooked a meal for William Bonney before he rode out on a horse. William Bonney was killed in 1881. She was 9 years old, living in Lampasas County, Texas, in 1880.
The similarity of phrases in some of the affidavits suggests that Morrison prepared affidavits for the affiants to sign. Did he coax them to say what he wanted to hear? Perhaps Morrison put words in the mouths of the affiants. Nobody knows. Information in the affidavits is suspect if it cannot be confirmed from an independent reliable source.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 8, 2018 18:48:15 GMT -5
That's why the affidavits were notarized. No matter who wrote them, no matter who encouraged whom to say what, they "were" sworn to by the affiants in front of a notary.
So you say "some information attributed to Martile Able is correct". In your last post you said "I do not believe anything that Martile said in her affidavit". So which is it, can we believe some of what she said or none of what she said?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 8, 2018 21:14:20 GMT -5
That's why the affidavits were notarized. No matter who wrote them, no matter who encouraged whom to say what, they "were" sworn to by the affiants in front of a notary. So you say "some information attributed to Martile Able is correct". In your last post you said "I do not believe anything that Martile said in her affidavit". So which is it, can we believe some of what she said or none of what she said? This should be easily understood. Nothing attributed to Martile Able is credible unless it can be verified.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 8, 2018 23:21:09 GMT -5
OK, since we really can't verify her comments about Brushy and Billy The Kid, we can't believe them. So is it your position that "nothing ever said by any person can be believed without verification or is it just those who believe Brushy was BTK? If she would have taken the opposite position and insisted he was a fraud, then you'd probably be more than willing to believe her. Nothing personal I assure you but It sounds to me like some people only believe those who agree with them.
I have a different idea. Why not believe a person until they're proven to be lying? I know. You think it is proven she lied even though she is not a liar. I'm getting dizzy here. I need to get off this merry-go-round. So let's get back to the real importance of all this.
I will confess I really do understand your position. It's just your verbiage that I think is contradictory. And I will agree beyond the shadow of a doubt that you and I and anyone else should have reason to doubt Martile's claim. The reasons are obvious. She made statements that on the surface, seem impossible because of the timeline unless she meant something other than what she verbalized (we know that happens). She did not fully explain her comments with specifics. But don't you see, that's my point here. These things are not unusual with an affiant of her age and while they appear on the surface to be sufficient reason to doubt her, they do not prove her a fraud or a liar. Therefore, her statements, while not providing enough to consider them proof, can not just be summarily dismissed as the ravings of an attention seeking old lady. They also can't be thrown out because we do actually have some reasons to believe her. We know she and Brushy spoke for awhile and such a conversation should have revealed him as a fraud if he was one. We know she did offer specifics of why she believed he was Billy, his laugh, his appearance, etc. She did refuse a similar opportunity with another claimant earlier, which lends at least "some" degree of credibility. And we are told "he" immediately recognized "her". I know, that could all be lies too. But it's sort of a "glass half full or glass half empty" kind of thing. Either way, we can not just insist the glass is completely empty or completely full. The truth of that quandary is "the glass is both half full "and" half empty at the same time.
Martile's comments have to carry at least "some" weight in one's conclusion whether to believe Brushy's claim. There "is" some water in the glass! On that we should be able to agree.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 9, 2018 20:06:19 GMT -5
"Martile's comments have to carry at least "some" weight in one's conclusion whether to believe Brushy's claim. There "is" some water in the glass! On that we should be able to agree."
ABtK, p. 112. Statement attributed to Martile Able: "“Many times Billy would come to our house when he was on the dodge.”"
Billy the Kid was killed in 1881. Martile and John C Able were married in 1898. Billy the Kid never came to the house of John C. and Martile Able. Martile's glass is empty. She never met Billy the Kid. She did meet Oliver P. Roberts, alias Brushy Bill, alias William Henry Roberts.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 9, 2018 23:58:32 GMT -5
“Many times Billy would come to our house when he was on the dodge.”
You just continue to ignore the logical explanation for that. Brushy "was" Billy. He visited their house after they were married in 1898 because he was still alive then. The only way she knew he was Billy was because her husband had told her he was. She believed her husband as most wives would. Her comments do carry "some" weight. At least they indicate that John C. Able believed Brushy was BTK. That glass is far from empty.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 10, 2018 21:13:24 GMT -5
“Many times Billy would come to our house when he was on the dodge.” You just continue to ignore the logical explanation for that. Brushy "was" Billy. He visited their house after they were married in 1898 because he was still alive then. The only way she knew he was Billy was because her husband had told her he was. She believed her husband as most wives would. Her comments do carry "some" weight. At least they indicate that John C. Able believed Brushy was BTK. That glass is far from empty. ““Many times Billy would come to our house when he was on the dodge.” “You just continue to ignore the logical explanation for that. Brushy "was" Billy. “ You just continue to assume that Brushy “was” Billy in spite of the facts that an 1881 coroners jury report said the death of William Bonney was justifiable homicide; that no evidence has been found showing Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, died or left Van Zandt County; that the names on the 1912 marriage license were Oliver Roberts and Mollie Brown (that was before Brushy returned from Mexico in 1914); that the name on Brushy’s WWI registration card was Oliver Pleasant Roberts; that the birth date on Brushy’s WWI registration card was 26 August1878; that the birth date on Brushy’s death certificate was 31 December 1868; that the birth date on Brushy’s original grave marker was 31 December 1868; that no credible record has ever been found of parents J. H. “Wild Henry” Roberts, Mary Adeline Dunn, half-brother James Roberts, cousin Ollie Roberts. What am I missing? Tell me again why Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 10, 2018 23:24:13 GMT -5
Let us not go round in circles. You know very well why I believe Brushy was Billy the Kid. Do I really need to make a list?
I believe Severo Gallegos' ID of him. I believe Martile Able's husband John knew Billy and introduced Brushy to her as Billy. I believe he looked too much like Billy for it to be coincidence. Not just in the face but his entire physique down to the shape of his hands. I believe Brushy knew too much about the Lincoln County War and the life of Billy The Kid to have gotten it all from books, especially since he was not an avid reader. I believe he knew some things about the life of Billy that he could not possibly have found in a book or any other documented data. I believe Brushy had way more scars than Oliver Pleasant Roberts would have had. I believe there are photos of Brushy that indicate he was too old to have been born in 1879. I believe it would have been "extremely" unlikely for him to be willing to appear before the Governor and risk going to the electric chair over a false claim.
There are other reasons more specific but here's a new one that will probably make you laugh (just don't laugh too hard yet): I'm getting closer to believing he was Billy because J. Frank Dalton said he was.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 11, 2018 17:22:22 GMT -5
I believe Severo Gallegos' ID of him.
Even though Severo initially said Brushy was too young? And only after seeing brown spots in Brushy’s eyes? Was that one of BtK’s well known physical characteristics?
I believe Martile Able's husband John knew Billy and introduced Brushy to her as Billy.
That assumption is based on Martile’s statement that BtK and a group of friends had a photo made in 1880. John C. Abel was in Uvalde County, TX, in the 1880 census.
I believe he looked too much like Billy for it to be coincidence. Not just in the face but his entire physique down to the shape of his hands.
I believe Brushy knew too much about the Lincoln County War and the life of Billy The Kid to have gotten it all from books, especially since he was not an avid reader. Not an avid reader? That is an opinion, not a fact. Nobody knows the answer.
I believe he knew some things about the life of Billy that he could not possibly have found in a book or any other documented data. Since you believe Brushy was BtK, obviously Brushy knew far more about the supposed life of BtK. No BtK historian had written about Brushy’s exploits prior to 1873. No BtK historian had written about Brushy’s adventures after 1881. Very strange that Brushy never mentioned the New Mexico marriage of his caretaker, Katherine, and William Antrim.
I believe Brushy had way more scars than Oliver Pleasant Roberts would have had.
Maybe he did, but what does that prove?
I believe there are photos of Brushy that indicate he was too old to have been born in 1879. There are a number of comments, including that of Severo Gallegos, that Brushy did not appear to be 90 years old.
I believe it would have been "extremely" unlikely for him to be willing to appear before the Governor and risk going to the electric chair over a false claim. No need for Brushy to appear before the Governor. Nobody had any reason to suspect that William Henry Roberts/Brushy Bill had ever committed murder. After about 70, why bother about the reputation of BtK/William Bonney/William Antrim.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 12, 2018 0:56:35 GMT -5
"Was that one of BtK’s well known physical characteristics?" According to Gallegos, it was an obvious and unique trait.
"John C. Abel was in Uvalde County, TX, in the 1880 census." There were 364 other days in 1880 besides the one on which the census was taken.
"Not an avid reader? That is an opinion, not a fact." According to Sonnichsen, Brushy was not a "literate" man. That statement had to be referring to him not being "literary".
"Maybe he did, but what does that prove?" It doesn't "prove" anything but it "is" one of my reasons for believing Brushy's claim. I already said why. Oliver Pleasant Roberts would not have been in a position to have so many scars.
"that Brushy did not appear to be 90 years old" A well known point, but there is a photo of him at a time when Oliver P. Roberts would have been about 50 where he looks older than that.
I don't even understand the other points you tried to make.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 12, 2018 12:06:24 GMT -5
""John C. Abel was in Uvalde County, TX, in the 1880 census." There were 364 other days in 1880 besides the one on which the census was taken."
Wayne, there were 365 other days in 1880 besides the one on which the census was taken. 1880 was a leap year.
No credible evidence has been found that John C Able was in west Texas in 1880.
Nothing supports Martile's statement that a photo was made in 1880 of a group of friends.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 12, 2018 15:26:03 GMT -5
Tell me every place I was during the year 1970. The census will say I was in Panama City, Florida but I wasn't even there the day the census was taken. During that year I was in Troy, AL, Atlanta, GA, New Orleans, Mobile, Chattanooga, Johnson City, TN, Mississippi, Montgomery, and Birmingham, to name a few, and I spent about 2 months of that year In Panama City. I have no "records" I was in any of those places other than Panama City, FL but I most definitely was. Do you have records of every place you were in 1970 or any other year? I doubt it.
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Post by Mike Bilberry on Mar 31, 2019 17:34:47 GMT -5
Martile Able was the daughter of John C Bilberry from Overton Tennessee. The Bilberry’s settled in San Saba Texas and eventually moved to Mayhill Cloudcroft area. They ran cattle and goats. They bought supplies in Pecos Tx and even went to El Paso TX. Our family history has stories of John Able and John C Bilberry riding with Billy the Kid for a short period of time. John C Bilberry has worked closely with the Texas Rangers to help end the Range Wars in San Saba Texas.
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Post by nmjames on Mar 31, 2019 21:58:59 GMT -5
Hi Mike,
Are you any kin or know Jay Bilberry? I have done research of the Bilberry and Abel family and have visited with Jay. I also know a man that is kin to the Abel family. I would like to visit with you about the family. I have some pictures you might like to have if you don't already have them.
nmjames
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