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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 12, 2015 13:38:26 GMT -5
XS59, Even today, very few live to be 100. Census information indicates 0.02% of the US population is 100 or older.
However, J. Frank Dalton, the fake Jesse James, was probably over 100 when he died. These documents support that assumption. His pension application indicates that he had been a bona fide resident of Texas since 8 March 1848. The printed letterhead on his note pad found in his Texas pension file shows his date of birth as 8 March 1848. The 1930 census of McLennan County, Texas, shows that Frank Dalton was 82, indicating a birth year of about 1848. The 1940 census of Gregg County, Texas, shows that Frank Dalton was 92, indicating a birth year of about 1848.
We know that Frank Dalton contributed articles to the Gregg County newspaper where Garland Farmer was the editor, and that versions of these articles later became part of the Crittenden Memoirs. We know that Frank Dalton's knowledge was based on what he read, and not what he witnessed. In the Crittenden Memoirs, he repeated the false story published in Texas newspapers that Bill Anderson escaped the October 1864 Missouri ambush, and died in Brown County, Texas, about 1927. He also repeated the incorrect story that the real name of William Clarke Quantrill was Charlie Hart, and that he had a brother, Nathaniel. Dalton also said the William Clarke Quantrill taught school in Osceola, Texas, after the Civil War.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 25, 2015 15:21:09 GMT -5
"Rather, he was approached by William Morrison and only then did he ADMIT his true identity. His behavior does not support your theories."
I believe your statement is in error.
ADMIT - confess to be true or to be the case, typically with reluctance.
CLAIM - state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 26, 2015 8:43:49 GMT -5
"ADMIT - confess to be true or to be the case, typically with reluctance."
I beg your pardon but that is exactly what he did. First he told Morrison he was not Billy The Kid ("reluctance"), then he said he was ("confessed to be true"). If we're going to turn this into an english grammar class, I should warn you I have a Bachelor of Music Education degree with the equivalent of a minor in English as was the requirement at the University I attended. I'm not always as careful as I should be with usage, but I am capable of debating you on that level. Let's not go there.
I suggest we remember this is a discussion board and not a grammar class.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 26, 2015 13:38:20 GMT -5
Mr. Land, I do not question your command of the English language. As you have previously stated more than once, you believe, but can not prove, that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Consequently, Brushy Bill could not have admitted that he was Billy the Kid since there is no proof that he was Billy the Kid. Brushy Bill claimed that he was Billy the Kid, and provided no proof in support of that claim. His supposed reluctance to reveal his claim is irrelevant, and does not change the fact that Brushy Bill claimed, rather than admitted, he was Billy the Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 26, 2015 14:46:01 GMT -5
No, actually, Brushy certainly could have "admitted" he was Billy, if he really was Billy. Your assertion he could not have "admitted" it is based on your conviction he was not telling the truth. I believe he was telling the truth, therefore my statement he "admitted" it is correct from my point of view. As if it matters in the whole scheme of things.
Actually, your definition of "admit" does not specify an admission has to be the truth in order to be an admission. To do so it would have to be worded:
"ADMIT - confess "the truth" to be the case, typically with reluctance."
But it doesn't say "the truth". It says "to be true".
"ADMIT - confess to be true or to be the case, typically with reluctance."
When Brushy said he was Billy The Kid he was confessing that "to be true" whether it was actually true or not.
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Post by Sam Fraser on Sept 24, 2015 12:41:11 GMT -5
As for the business about him abandoning his wife and children, is it not possible that he visited them when he could do so without being detected and if Zee loved him like my wife loves me, would she not sacrifice being with him in order to allow him to live on a free man? It is said she was fairly poor. So? What does that prove? Nothing! Frank James, Jesse's brother, had business dealings later with Robert Ford, the man who shot him! This was one reason people claimed the man shot couldn't have been Jesse!
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Post by guesticles on Oct 14, 2015 8:43:31 GMT -5
** 1948, probate investigator William V. Morrison was sent from St. Louis, Missouri to Florida to investigate the case of an elderly man attempting to claim his recently deceased brother's land. The deceased man had been Jesse Evans' brother. The man's name was Joe Hines, but during Morrison's interview of Hines, the latter allegedly revealed that he was really Jesse Evans and discussed his part in the Lincoln County War, and his association with Billy the Kid. He revealed that of those involved in that range war, three, including himself, remained alive; the other two were Jim McDaniels (an Evans Gang member) and Billy the Kid. Hines claimed that Billy the Kid was going by the name of Ollie P. Roberts, living in Hico, Texas. With some coaxing, Roberts did talk to Morrison, but eventually his story was discredited by almost all historians. *Hines won his case, and was granted his brother's land in Florida. It has been asserted that Hines in fact had been Jesse Evans*, but no one has been able to explain why, if Roberts was not Billy the Kid, Hines/Evans pointed Morrison in his direction. Morrison also attempted to track down former Evans Gang member Jim McDaniels, locating him in Round Rock, Texas. McDaniels, along with Severo Gallegos, Martile Able, Jose Montoya, and Bill and Sam Jones, all of whom had known Billy the Kid, signed affidavits claiming to verify that Roberts was in fact Billy the Kid.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 6, 2016 23:50:11 GMT -5
"McDaniels, along with Severo Gallegos, Martile Able, Jose Montoya, and Bill and Sam Jones, all of whom had known Billy the Kid, signed affidavits claiming to verify that Roberts was in fact Billy the Kid."
guesticles, The copy of "Alias Billy the Kid" that I have includes the affidavits of Gallegos, Able, and Montoya. It does not include affidavits of Bill Jones or Sam Jones. William Shafer, grandson of Bill Jones, is quoted as saying that Bill Jones could not sign the affidavit as Brushy Bill gave no proof at the time we met. Sam Jones said he could not sign an affidavit as he didn't feel like being obligated.
Morrison said Martile Able was 89 at the time of the 1950 interview, which would indicate she was born about 1862. Research of Martile Able reveals that she and her husband John C. Able/Abel/Abels are both buried in Concordia Cemetery in El Paso. Find A Grave Memorial# 121263674 Additional obituary and census information reveals that her maiden name was Martelia Bilberry, born in Cooke County, Texas, about 1872. She was living in her parents' household in Lampasas County, Texas, when the 1880 census was conducted. It is true that she signed an affidavit that she BELIEVED Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, although she had never seen William Bonney.
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Post by clydec on Aug 7, 2016 8:27:56 GMT -5
She said he last visited her and her husband John in 1901 and that was the last time she had seen him until the day that Brushy and Morrison visited her. This proves that she had met him before and that Billy was not killed by Garrett in 1881!
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 7, 2016 10:36:21 GMT -5
"She said he last visited her and her husband John in 1901 and that was the last time she had seen him until the day that Brushy and Morrison visited her. "
clydec, I agree that the statement is found in Martile's affidavit.
Martile also said that William Bonney visited with the Able family BEFORE and after Pat Garrett killed Billy the Kid. Not possible. John C. Able and Martile were married in 1898. Martile Bilberry, 7 years old, was in Lampasas County, Texas, in the 1880 TX census. John C. Able, 19 years old, was in Uvalde County, Texas, in the 1880 census. Martile never met William Bonney. She certainly met Brushy Bill when he was pretending to be Billy the Kid. Her affidavit is not credible.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 7, 2016 11:38:48 GMT -5
The problem with the affidavits is they do not include enough detailed explanation. For example, in this instance when Martile claimed Billy visited "the Able Family" before 1881, she does not specify that she was part of that family before 1881. It is quite possible she was referring to information passed on by her husband. Consider the following possible explanation.
John Able had met and known Billy The Kid before 1881 (as is indicated by the photo where Billy is holding a fiddle). Billy had visited John's family before 1881 when Martile was not yet part of that family. In 1901, Billy (alias Brushy) visited John and his wife Martile. John tells Martile that this man is Billy The Kid and that he, Billy, had visited the Able family before 1881. She believes her husband who she trusts completely to be sharing truthful information with her. In 1948/49 William Morrison and Brushy visit Martile and she puts in her affidavit that Billy had visited "the Able family" before and after 1881. She does not say Billy had visited "her". She says he visited the Able family. Whether the statement is true or false, it certainly "is" possible.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 7, 2016 13:56:53 GMT -5
"John Able had met and known Billy The Kid before 1881 (as is indicated by the photo where Billy is holding a fiddle). "
Where did that description of the photo come from? All I find in "Alias Billy the Kid" is Martile's statement that John C. Able knew William Bonney around Pecos, Texas, where a group of friends had a photo made in 1880 that included a good likeness of William Bonney.
Of course, storyteller that he is, Jameson's imagination made the story more interesting by describing the scene of the photo as a barbershop, where John C. Able was the barber, and William Bonney is sitting on a bench waiting his turn. See page 99 of "Billy the Kid, Beyond the Grave". For good measure, Jameson added that Martile handed this photograph to Morrison.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 8, 2016 2:10:09 GMT -5
Please don't ask me to defend Jameson in order to justify my beliefs. I'm not responsible for what Jameson wrote, knew, made up or imagined. I'll see if I can find any provenance for the photo I mentioned which may or may not be the one Martile was referring to.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 8, 2016 13:44:03 GMT -5
"Please don't ask me to defend Jameson in order to justify my beliefs. I'm not responsible for what Jameson wrote, knew, made up or imagined."
Wayne, I would never ask anyone to defend Jameson. He is a singer, poet, novelist, entertainer, and self promoter, not a researcher or historian. A list of his books indicates he specializes in buried treasures of America (36 books) and the return to life of famous individuals Amelia Earhart, Butch Cassidy, John Wilkes Booth, and Billy the Kid.
Another example of Jameson's unsurpassed imagination: he identified the Bible supposedly found in the trunk of Brushy's deceased 4th wife Melinda as having its origins with the James Henry Robert's family. I don't believe Brushy Bill said the first name of his father was James. I don't believe there is anything that supports Jameson's assumption that the Bible originated with the Roberts Family. It seems equally, and probably more likely that it was Melissa Murrell Allison Roberts Bible. I don't believe J. H. Roberts carried a Bible to and from the Civil War. I do not believe that Brushy Bill carried the Bible for 50 years across 3 continents, 6 countries, 8 states, 3 wives, 2 imprisonments, and 2 escapes. BUT ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!!
Now that Jameson had created a J. H. Roberts family Bible, he then attempted to add credibility to his story. He enhanced the story by having Brushy Bill add the Bible to his pack when he departed his father's household in Carlton in May 1874. He added more fiction when he said that Brushy Bill pointed to the Bible, and told Morrison, "That's what is says right here." about his birth.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 8, 2016 19:02:00 GMT -5
The problem with all that is, it seemed you were deflecting my previous post by moving the discussion from Martile Ables and how she might have been telling the truth to W.C. Jameson and how he made up stuff. OK, I'll share my opinion about Jameson. I too "suspect" he improvised some of his writings in order to sell books, but I don't know that for certain. Maybe he had some evidence to support his claims? Frederic Bean claims to have been given access to Brushy's notebooks, the interview tapes, etc. and it is quite possible there was information there that was not included in Morrison's book or elsewhere. We don't really know that. Jameson himself, I'm certain, would be very offended by assertions he made up things. I'm not saying I know he did. I'm saying it looks suspicious. I will mention that I have the utmost respect for Steve Sederwall who claims Jameson as a friend. I've spoken to Steve on the phone and online and I know he is an honest man with integrity who keeps an open mind. I don't know W.C. Jameson.
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