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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 15, 2016 2:35:49 GMT -5
There is a twenty-year age difference between the real Billy the Kid and the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts. If the picture of 14 year old Brushy could be dated it could possibly prove Beyond Reasonable Doubt or Beyond the Shadow of a Doubt whether he was or wasn't Billy the Kid. If the photo is dated mid seventies then it would be likely that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid but it could mean that he was Oliver Roberts and his picture was taken with an older camera. However if the photo is dated mid nineties it would prove beyond the Shadow of a Doubt that Brushy Bill was not Billy the Kid. 2. If Brushy Bill DNA was compared to Henry Oliver Roberts wife Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson and it was a match this would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that Brushy Bill was not Billy the Kid. If it does not match it would prove Beyond reasonable doubt that he was Billy the Kid. I am not sure why this has not been done or which side of the argument to blame because I can think of reasons why both would not do this. Dating the photo would be the first easiest approach and yet neither side has tried to do this as far as I know. I would like to assemble a special task force to accomplish this task. No special skills or viewpoints will be required of any member except pure dedication to accomplishing this goal. Spread the word. If you are interested or know anyone that is interested please let me know.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 15, 2016 10:02:12 GMT -5
Here's a mission someone could undertake. I tried years ago but never got anywhere. A former member of another message board I use to frequent before starting this one insisted that the photo of Brushy at 14 was not really Brushy. And the reason for his doubts was that he had seen the entire photo from which it was clipped. He insisted the photo was a group photo of some of the Clements family and that the lad in the clipping had to be one of them and not Brushy since he just knew Brushy wasn't old enough to have been in the photo. He insisted the photo was taken in the 1870's because of other folks in it who could be identified. The original, larger, group photo appeared in a book written by Leon Metz (I think he said). It was a book containing mostly photos from the old west (I think).
We need to find that photo. If what he was saying was true, then it doesn't prove Brushy was Billy The Kid because there is probably no proof the fellow in the photo was Billy. But it does prove, absolutely prove, that Brushy was "not" Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born in 1879.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 15, 2016 11:07:16 GMT -5
(Wayne, you would be better able to track that guy down than any of us could.) I'll look into the author and book but as I mentioned before somewhere else my library is open 4 hours a day 4 days a week. And it ain't always open when I can get there. This might take teamwork. It will probably take an organized team. If not just for moral support.Not just sporadic messages across a message board. I never saw any dummy on this forum before. We got a group of good people here. Hell even the Texas Truth-Teller might have some connections with the Billy the Kid Outlaw Gang. We can find this photo and it will let a lot of people sleep a little easier at night. Comment if you have information on the photo or can help with the DNA. Private message me also with phone numbers and let's get this going
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Post by clydec on Sept 15, 2016 12:24:27 GMT -5
yep need to find this photo. Well, if he was a member of the Clements family maybe he was Billy Barlow after all!
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 9, 2016 22:41:27 GMT -5
Nmjames checked the harden book and Shooters book by Metz. No photo of young Brushy was found. I have said this would be the photo to make or break him. If nobody knows where it is then this is another strike against him.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 9, 2016 23:11:17 GMT -5
I think I was the one that got this query started recently. I had mentioned that Allen ?(don't remember the last name), a former member of another board I use to frequent, tried to insist that the photo of 14 year old Brushy was could not be Brushy because he had found it was clipped from a group photo of a Clements family that had to have dated to the 1870's. Since Oliver Pleasant Roberts would not have been a teen in the 1870's, he surmised the photo was not actually Brushy. He also insisted it was not a photo of Billy The Kid.
I reasoned the photo was absolutely a picture of a young Brushy and that if the photo was indeed taken in the 1870's as Allen insisted that it was proof Brushy could not have been the real Oliver P. Roberts. Allen told me he had seen the picture in a book by Leon Metz. I do not remember the name of the book but it seems it was a lengthy name. I think it might have been the book entitled "The Encyclopedia of Lawmen, Outlaws, and Gunfighters". I've looked into getting a copy of that book but the hard bound ones are selling in the $60+ range. It is available in a paperback for $9.00. I think I'm going to order it. Understand though, this is all based on my recollection which definitely could be faulty.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 9, 2016 23:53:59 GMT -5
Is the picture of the young Brushy that mckinley412 posted on Aug. 11, 2016 at 3:02pm The Many Faces Of Billy The Kid, the picture you are talking about? Mr. Hall should be able to help you on the picture, if it's the one you are talking about.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 10, 2016 11:25:04 GMT -5
I ordered the book. It will be here in a week or so. The photo I'm speaking of is attached. The young fellow in this photo is the spitting image of Brushy at age 27 and is a better match to the legendary Billy tintype than any other photo out there. See this page at my website. musicpla9.wixsite.com/searchingforthekid/other-photosIf you look closely you'll see the photo has a rather crude oval shape around the face indicating it was clipped from a larger picture. It also shows some other background that is obviously not part of the same picture. If I ever find the source of that photo, I may have proof that Brushy was "not" the real Oliver P. Roberts. We'll see.
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 10, 2016 13:13:28 GMT -5
Mr. Hall said morrisons daughter barbara might have them but she isn't speaking with anyone, she's working on a screenplay or something and also tunstills kids might have gotten the picture but they were not very interested in the story so they probably don't have it anymore.
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Post by clydec on Oct 10, 2016 14:22:12 GMT -5
I believe I have seen the full photo that this came from somewhere online a while back but have not been able to find it since. If this was a Clements family pic and it is Brushy, than Brushy was a Clements and may have been related to John Wesley Hardin.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 10, 2016 15:43:14 GMT -5
Possibly, but you may remember Brushy claimed Billy Barlow was related to the Clements family. I've always wondered if Billy The Kid (Brushy) had some contact with the Clements family, thus the acquaintance with Barlow. This is all getting pretty far into the tall weeds I think, but you never know where it might lead our search.
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Post by clydec on Oct 10, 2016 16:45:20 GMT -5
It would be great to somehow prove that Brushy was not Oliver P though and that he was at least old enough to be Billy.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 10, 2016 17:56:48 GMT -5
Wayne,
I looked throught the book "The Encyclopedia of Lawmen, Outlaws, and Gunfighters today and did not find the pictue of Brushy in it. The one you posted is the one I thought you have been talking about.
nmjames
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 10, 2016 18:42:38 GMT -5
" If I ever find the source of that photo, I may have proof that Brushy was "not" the real Oliver P. Roberts. We'll see."
That appears to be the same photo found on page 112 of "Billy the Kid, an Autobiography". The small photo is an inset surrounded by 4 larger photos.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 10, 2016 18:59:04 GMT -5
It's also in Allas Billy The Kid by Sonnichsen and Morrison at the end of the pictures next to page 59. At the top left is the picture of said Billy the Kid taken with the Jones boys.
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