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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 3, 2016 18:00:33 GMT -5
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 3, 2016 18:01:12 GMT -5
The fourth one is a John H Roberts who went thru the trouble to let people know that he also goes by the alternate name of J.H.Roberts. Anyway, I hope this was entertaining to someone and wanted to say thanks again for sharing that fantastic website. P.s. the first one I posted was also married to a Mary A Roberts but if they were living in Kentucky then Brushy probably wouldn't have been born 1859 in Texas. If he was born in 1861 like he told Walker in Jesse James the Outlaw then that would have allowed enough time for John and Mary A. to get to Texas, and give birth to him.   |
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 4, 2016 0:50:49 GMT -5
  Here are two James. Roberts in Hopkins County, Texas that are probably the same guy, they both give their birthplace as Alambama, not Kentucky but the birth year might be right. One is married to an Elizabeth and they have a son named William. The one census is 20 years earlier and he is living in a house with TWO Mary Roberts, could one be Brushy's mom? They are only 15 years apart but they could be mother and daughter, but no, they don't have the middle name Adeline. |
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 4, 2016 10:23:42 GMT -5
mckinley412,
You are hunting for a ghost. J. H. "Wild Henry" never existed. Mary Adeline Dunn never existed. William Henry Roberts, son of J. H. Roberts, never existed. William Henry Roberts and Brushy Bill Roberts were identities adopted by Oliver Pleasant Roberts, probably about 1935. Brushy Bill's claimed birth date of 1868 on his death certificate, and 1859 in his fable are both bogus. He was born in 1879 as Oliver Roberts in Sebastian County, AR, to Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson.
Look at these census records. Oliver Roberts is in Sebastian Co, AR, in 1880; in Hopkins Co, TX, in 1900; in Van Zandt Co, TX, in 1910; in Van Zandt Co, TX, in 1920; in Van Zandt Co, TX, in 1930; and in Gregg Co, TX, in 1940. His approximate birth year of 1879 is consistent until the 1940 census, when he suddenly becomes 10 years older. The birthplace of his parents is consistent except for the 1910 census, where the birthplace of both was reported as Kentucky. Wayne makes a big deal of this. Census records are as accurate as the knowledge of the informant who provided the information; the census taker who took notes at the residence; and the transcription of the notes to the census page by the census taker.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 4, 2016 17:26:24 GMT -5
The 1910 census says, he was born in Texas, parents born in Kentucky, and that he could read and write. I find it interesting because it would have been around this time either 1900 or 1910 census that something would have dramatically changed Since Martha would have had to have been old enough for her husband to even argue with her about who Brushy was. She was born abt. 1873. And the real Ollie was born about 1878 according to stuff and 1867 according to ATBK. I guess there is no 1890 census of Oliver, maybe because Oliver ran away in 1884 according to ABTK. Idk. I'll keep looking and keep an open mind. I will take a look 1880 census and 1900 census next and see if there is anything to do with an Ollie born in 1867 according to ATBK.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 14, 2016 2:10:27 GMT -5
Here's a confederate soldier from Texas going by the name of J H Roberts.  |
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 14, 2016 14:48:19 GMT -5
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 14, 2016 15:37:49 GMT -5
"The 1910 census says, he was born in Texas, parents born in Kentucky, and that he could read and write. "
mckinley412,
You are correct. In this census, the birthplace of Oliver Roberts' parents is listed as Kentucky.
Oliver Roberts married Anna Lee 11 July 1909 in Van Zandt County, and divorced her 10 November 1910. They were recorded as man and wife in the 1910 census in Van Zandt County. Why was Kentucky shown as the birthplace of his parents? If Oliver was not home when the census taker came by, and Anna provided the information, she may have guessed that his parents were born in Kentucky.
It is a fact that Brushy Bill told Morrison he returned to Mexico in 1907 and was there until 1914. During that time. Oliver Roberts married and divorced Anna Lee, was counted in the 1910 census, and married Mollie Brown in 1912. Of course, Brushy Bill did not list Anna Lee as one of his wives, but he did list Mollie Brown and the date that he met her, 1912.
Hope this helps.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 14, 2016 16:07:04 GMT -5
So Anna Lee just "guessed" that Oliver's parents were from Kentucky? There were 47 other states she could have guessed, but she just happened to pick the same one he would use for the birthplace of his fictitious parents that he would "make up" nearly 40 years later. That's quite a reach if you ask me. But since we're reaching, I'll give you my "quite a reach" explanation for the discrepancies. I believe the Oliver Roberts that married Anna Lee in 1909 was the real Oliver P. Roberts, not Brushy. I hesitate to guess exactly when Brushy stepped into Oliver's life but it must have been in 1910. I surmise that the real Oliver had skipped town and disappeared on his wife Anna sometime prior to the 1910 census. Anna desperately wanted a divorce but could not obtain it without Oliver's signature. Brushy shows up and they hatch a plan to help her get the divorce. He will pretend to be Oliver and sign the divorce papers for her. Maybe she and Brushy were having a thing, maybe not. But the census taker shows up at her home and either she, or Brushy himself, slips up and tells them his parents were from Kentucky. The divorce is granted but Brushy and Anna go their separate ways. Brushy has become known as Oliver Roberts but so that folks around who know the real Oliver P. will not be reporting his fraudulent claims to the authorities, he comes up with the cousin story and the middle initial "L" and later to explain the discrepancy to Morrison and others he comes up with the fake story about the Oliver who ran away from home and died in Indian Territory.
Wow, now how's that for an imagination? That was fun. Could it be what really happened? Or did Anna just happen to "guess" Kentucky out of 48 states?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 14, 2016 20:38:12 GMT -5
Wrong again, Land.
Arizona and New Mexico were admitted in 1912.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 14, 2016 21:11:20 GMT -5
one of the affidavits already stated that Billy the Kid went from America to Mexico back and forth back and forth and owned various ranches and this was years before the Anna dispute ever came up. I doubt Brushy, Morrison, or Sonnichsen could have planned out a conspiracy that works so well. I was worried about the Anna timeline as well until I saw in the affidavit that they already said he was moving back and forth back and forth.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 14, 2016 21:24:48 GMT -5
maybe Mr. land wasn't so far off. I always wondered if anna wasn't one of his wives. I have tried to message Roy Haws to see about the records he found of a Ben Roberts and a J H Roberts in Nacogdoches TX.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 14, 2016 23:02:45 GMT -5
" I have tried to message Roy Haws to see about the records he found of a Ben Roberts and a J H Roberts in Nacogdoches TX."
Haws identified a Benjamin Roberts buried in Navarro County.
Find A Grave Memorial# 28019405
All of Benjamin's children are identified based on 1850 and 1860 census records.
I do not believe Roy found a Ben Roberts and/or J. H. Roberts in Nacogdoches County, TX.
Hope this helps.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 15, 2016 10:46:49 GMT -5
My recent "imagination challenging" theory (five posts up) has me thinking about the haunting question "why the middle initial L". If Billy The Kid was going to take Oliver P. Roberts' name, why change the middle initial? If Brushy really was Oliver P. Roberts, why change the middle initial? Was there actually "two" Olivers, Oliver P. and Oliver L. I've suggested in the past that there may have been and Brushy was taking the name of the "impossible to find" Ollie L who actually did get killed in Indian territory. But we all know that theory is impossible to prove. Please note the meaning of the word "theory."
Maybe, just maybe, my imagination has helped me stumble onto a theory that makes more sense. Probably not provable either but possibly more logical than the "two Olivers" theory. I'll start by saying Brushy was definitely a liar. I'm not saying he wasn't Billy The Kid.' I'm saying If he was Billy The Kid then by the time he met William Morrison he had been lying for nearly 70 years just to try to stay alive. Lying had become a way of life, for sure. But sticking with his claim of being born William Henry Roberts, a claim I believe to be absolutely factual, he had a reason to go try to make a life for himself in Van Zandt county, Texas in 1910. He had relatives there and he was really tired of being a rambler. He wanted to settle down near family. But there was no Oliver L Roberts, only Oliver Pleasant Roberts. Brushy didn't make his way to Texas with the intention of taking on the Oliver Roberts name as an alias but when he got there and discovered Oliver had recently disappeared, it was an obvious choice. But there certainly were family members who knew he was not the real deal, so he changed the middle initial when he needed to and used the P initial when he needed to depending on who he was trying to deceive. To relatives and acquaintances of Oliver P. he was Oliver L. To the draft board or on other official documents such as the divorce papers from Anna, he was Oliver P. There has to have been some collusion with Anna regarding her divorce from the real Oliver P. And there is probably some truth to the claim that the mother believed he was her son Oliver P. If she was a bit deranged mentally. Heck, my elderly mother once greeted me as her deceased brother. Such a thing can and does happen. When using the initial L. he might well have been asked by family, "If you're our cousin Oliver L. then where have you been all these years?" Thus the cooked up story of running away at a young age. Now, remember I said he was a liar. So when he met Morrison he tried to present a narrative that tied the two Oliver aliases into one lie that could make sense for those who still knew him as Oliver "L" Roberts. So in a nutshell, what has occurred to me is that there didn't have to be two real Olivers in order for there to be a need for two Oliver aliases.
The fact is, if you are going to believe Brushy was Billy The Kid then you must believe he was a liar big time. Maybe I should make a list of all the things he said that I believe were lies but that would be very difficult. It is difficult to pull the lies from the truth. I believe he was Billy The Kid, not because of the things he made up but because of the things he knew and his physical appearance. And because of the question asked by Sonnichsen, "If he was not Billy the Kid then who was he?" I can say with great certainty I believe he was "not" Oliver Pleasant Roberts.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 15, 2016 18:49:30 GMT -5
Wayne,
You do have a marvelous imagination.
It's easy to separate the truth from Brushy Bill's many lies.
He owned land in Arkansas.
He married Mollie Brown.
He married Loutecia Ballard.
He married Melinda Allison.
The rest of his story is BS (except for information he found in "The Saga of Billy the Kid").
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