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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 7, 2015 23:29:26 GMT -5
Before you get too excited with information from the Bible of Eulaine Haws grandmother, take time to read the notes of Eulaine Haws found on page 31 of "Brushy Bill….Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale?"
Quote: The phone rang. I answered it and a voice asked, "Are you Eulaine Haws?" "Yes", I answered. Was your grandmother Martha Roberts Heath?", the voice asked. "Yes", I answered. "Then I think you are a cousin of Brushy Bill Roberts, known as Billy the Kid," he replied. "Oh no, you're joking!", was my reply…………My grandmother even called him brother………It seems that my grandmother's death certificate contained her mother's maiden name of Dunn……Mr. Tunstill has worked on research for Brushy Bill for about eight years. I have helped him for the last five years.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 8, 2015 15:59:23 GMT -5
The complete text (with the parts you skipped over in bold).
Quote: The phone rang. I answered it and a voice asked, "Are you Eulaine Haws?" "Yes", I answered. Was your grandmother Martha Roberts Heath?", the voice asked. "Yes", I answered. "Then I think you are a cousin of Brushy Bill Roberts, known as Billy the Kid," he replied. "Oh no, you're joking!", was my reply. Well, that was the shock of my life that turned out to be true. I now have a family tree chart. It seems that my grandmother's death certificate contained her mother's maiden name of Dunn. Her step-mother and father had helped raise Billy for several years and claimed him as their son to protect him from the law. My grandmother even called him brother I now have proof that Brushy Bill Roberts, alias Billy the Kid, of Hico Texas is my double third cousin. Mr. Tunstill has worked on research for Brushy Bill for about eight years. I have helped him for the last five years.
Point being, let us not pretend Elaine Haws wasn't really convinced Brushy was Billy. The book tries to downplay her belief. However, I think she was in a position to have been able to easily determine the truth of it and yet she apparently died convinced he was the real deal. We've been over this before I think.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 8, 2015 16:34:57 GMT -5
Indeed, Eulaine died believing that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. That may be true in your case. So what? That doesn't make it so.
"It seems that my grandmother's death certificate contained her mother's maiden name of Dunn." True statement. Her grandmother, Martha Vada Roberts Heath, was the daughter of Henry Oliver Roberts and Caroline Dunn. See Find A Grave memorial #45343258.
"Her step-mother and father had helped raise Billy for several years and claimed him as their son to protect him from the law." Her step-mother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson and Henry Oliver raised Oliver Pleasant Roberts, who referred to himself as Brushy Bill and claimed to be Billy the Kid. Sarah and H. O. claimed O. P. Roberts as their son since they were his parents.
"My grandmother even called him brother." I wonder why? She should have called him half-brother.
" I now have proof that Brushy Bill Roberts, alias Billy the Kid, of Hico Texas is my double third cousin. " Brushy Bill's bogus genealogy concocted by William A. Tunstill does show that Eulaine was a third cousin of Brushy Bill. That doesn't make it so.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 9, 2015 12:14:57 GMT -5
"Indeed, Eulaine died believing that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. That may be true in your case. So what? That doesn't make it so."
Either it matters what she believed or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then why are we talking about her in the first place?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 9, 2015 15:19:41 GMT -5
"Either it matters what she believed or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then why are we talking about her in the first place?"
It doesn't matter what she believed. You wished to make the point that she believed Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid after Dr. Tunstill brainwashed her. I agree with you that she died believing that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 9, 2015 19:29:32 GMT -5
OK. This is getting a bit silly. I didn't say what she believed doesn't matter. I was suggesting that the very fact she is involved in this debate proves that what she thought "does" matter. It matters because she was in a position to have been able speak in person to her grandmother who absolutely would have known the truth. If in spite of having that close to the source experience, she became convinced Brushy was Billy, then that is significant. And no, Tunstill did not "brainwash" her. He convinced her, yes, but you can't legitimately call that "brainwashing". How about let's move on to a more relevant discussion than trying to trace a Bible and determine its accuracy when neither one of us has seen it.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 10, 2015 21:17:11 GMT -5
" It matters because she was in a position to have been able speak in person to her grandmother who absolutely would have known the truth."
Martha Vada Roberts Heath died in 1947. Sonnichsen and Morrison wrote their fairy tale in 1955. Tunstill drowned Eulaine with ersatz genealogy in the 1980s. There was no controversy prior to Sonnichsen's publication. Just why would Eulaine have brought the subject up with her grandmother?
"OK. This is getting a bit silly."
That is an apt description of the argument that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Brushy said Henry Oliver Roberts was his uncle. The Texas death certificate of Henry's sister, Amanda Roberts Branch (1849 - 1923) identified her father as Virgil Roberts; her mother as Rachael Henson. Hard to confuse Rachel Henson with Mary Adeline Dunn.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 11, 2015 9:09:02 GMT -5
CORRECTION!!
" It matters because she was in a position to have been able speak in person to her grandmother who absolutely would have known the truth."
Martha Vada Roberts Heath died in 1947. Sonnichsen and Morrison wrote their fairy tale in 1955. Tunstill drowned Eulaine with ersatz genealogy in the 1980s. There was no controversy prior to Sonnichsen's publication. Just why would Eulaine have brought the subject up with her grandmother?
"OK. This is getting a bit silly."
That is an apt description of the argument that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Brushy said Henry Oliver Roberts was his uncle. The Texas death certificate of Henry's sister, Amanda Roberts Branch (1849 - 1923) identified her father as Virgil Roberts; her mother as Rachael Henson. Hard to confuse VIRGIL ROBERTS with J. H. ROBERTS.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 12, 2015 17:40:47 GMT -5
"Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same", William A. Tunstill, 1988
Page 7. "William Bonney's birth and legal name was William Henry Roberts." That is a WAG. No legal document exists for Brushy Bill, other than those marriage records and death certificates show his name is O. P. Roberts, Oliver Roberts, or Ollie Roberts. Tunstill has no facts about Brushy Bill's birth and legal name, only an opinion.
Page 7. "He left home to join Catherine Bonney McCarty." Morrison never referred to Catherine McCarty. He said her name was Kathrine Ann "Kathleen" Bonney. Tunstill added McCarty to add information found in the 1950s. There is no credible record that shows Catherine was ever known as Catherine Bonney. Writers appear to have assumed that her name was Bonney because her son, Henry McCarty, used the alias, William Bonney.
Page 7. "Third cousin Eulaine Haws has the best collection of family records." Tunstill might be half-right. Eulaine might have the best collection of family records. Eulaine was NOT a 3rd cousin of Brushy Bill except in his fantasy world.
Page 7. "Soon after leaving Fort Sumter, Brushy Bill changed his date of birth from 1859 to 1868 to prove he was too young to have participated in the Lincoln County war." Tunstill must have located Brushy Bill's diary to be certain of those details.
Page 8. "Aunt Bonney gave Brushy the names of Henry McCarty, Henry Roberts, and Henry Antrim while in her care." Two out of 3 aint bad. Tunstill had to include Roberts to fit with his story.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 12, 2015 20:11:03 GMT -5
"Page 7. "William Bonney's birth and legal name was William Henry Roberts." That is a WAG. No legal document exists for Brushy Bill, other than those marriage records and death certificates show his name is O. P. Roberts, Oliver Roberts, or Ollie Roberts. Tunstill has no facts about Brushy Bill's birth and legal name, only an opinion."
So, nothing can be considered true enough to be written in a book unless it is "documented fact". OK, well we better throw out everything ever written about Billy The Kid, or at least the vast majority of it.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 28, 2015 16:37:44 GMT -5
From “Alias Billy the Kid”, p. 74, paraphased. Brushy Bill knew Celsa and Pat’s wife He said they were sisters to Saval Gutierrez. He knew them before Pat came to the New Mexico Territory. Brushy said Celsa was one of his sweethearts when he was in Fort Sumner, and that her brother, Saval, lived there. After Brushy returned from hunting old John, Saval went up to Canaditas and got Celsa for me. Celsa wanted to go to Mexico with me, but I did not want to get married until Pat Garrett was gone.
OOPS!! Brushy must have forgotten what he read. Apolinario Gutierrez (1859) was the second wife of Pat Garrett. Brushy got that right. Her sister was Celsa Gutierrez (1857). He got that right. Sabal Gutierrez (1850) was not their brother. He was Celsa’s husband. Two out of three is pretty good for Brushy.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 15, 2016 20:54:18 GMT -5
How do we know it was Celsa's husband and not brother? Did somebody travel back in time and meet them or meet the census taker who couldn't speak spanish and spelled everyone's name wrong? You believe that guy? I have often been disappointed in some of Jameson's work but it's better than nothing and he is very easy to get a hold of if you want to ask him questions. Jim Johnson's book is an abomination. He changes and misquotes everything to make a point and the rest is just silly. I believe Brushy was right about almost everything and the rest of the history books were wrong. Every one makes mistakes due to memory lapse but who knows, maybe Fred Waite and Jim French were the same person. In They Knew Billy the Kid they interview people from the olden days and one person spells everyones last name wrong and they call Jim - Jim French White, only one letter off from Waite. Brett Hall's book is probably the best one out there along side of Alias.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 6, 2016 13:23:06 GMT -5
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 19, 2016 18:22:44 GMT -5
McKinley, "How do we know it was Celsa's husband and not brother? Did somebody travel back in time and meet them or meet the census taker who couldn't speak spanish and spelled everyone's name wrong?" Why do you assume the census taker could not speak Spanish?
No need to travel back in time. Just look at the 1880 census of Fort Sumner, San Miguel County, New Mexico. Household number 199, family number 210; head of household, Sabal Guiterres, age 30, a sheep herder; wife Celsa, age 24; daughter Mauricia, age 3. Yes, there are spelling errors in the census, ages are not always accurate. You are correct about Jameson's book. Bean probably did find a family Bible in Melinda's trunk. How did he know it was Brushy Bill's and not Melinda's? Jameson assumes it was a Roberts family Bible. Then Jameson decides that Brushy Bill packed the Bible with his belongings before departing his father's house in Carlton in 1874. Later, Jameson has Brushy Bill pointing to the Bible and telling Morrison, "That's what it says right here." Jameson is an entertaining writer. He failed to explain how J. H. Roberts carried the Bible to and from the Civil War, then how Brushy Bill carried the Bible for 75 years through 3 continents, 4 countries, 5 states, 2 wars, 3 marriages, 2 arrests, and 2 escapes.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 19, 2016 21:55:23 GMT -5
McKinley, "Jim Johnson's book is an abomination. He changes and misquotes everything to make a point and the rest is just silly."
You are stating an opinion. Could you cite examples of changes and misquotes that Jim Johnson made?
There is no doubt that Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown. There is no doubt that Mollie Brown and Oliver Roberts were married in Van Zandt County. There is no doubt that Brushy Bill registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 August 1879; nearest relative, Mollie Roberts. There is no doubt that Oliver P. Roberts, son of H. O. Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, was born 26 August 1879.
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