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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 2, 2015 21:27:46 GMT -5
Why is that impossible? Just because Martile was not a member of the "Ables" household prior to 1881 does not mean Billy did not visit the Ables. If Billy visited John Ables prior to 1881 and he later told Martile of this visit, then would it necessarily be a falsehood for her to state that Billy had visited "the Ables" before 1881. Most married couples love and trust one another to the point that they believe what the other tells them without question and beyond any doubt. They accept their spouse's statements as "fact"
John C.. Abel was probably born in Bexar County, Texas, about July 1860, although his death certificate shows July 1853; was in Travis County in 1870; and Uvalde County in 1880. John was 19 years old in 1880. Billy the Kid was killed in 1881. Just when did John C. Abel and Billy the Kid meet in Pecos? Or did Billy the Kid make a 1,00 mile round trip to Uvalde to meet John?
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Post by Wayne Land on May 3, 2015 10:59:32 GMT -5
I don't feel you and I are approaching any kind of resolution in our debate because your definitions and mine are different. You use the word "truthful" in a different sense than I do. I refer to a person's honesty where you refer to the factual correctness of their statements. I think one person's truth can be another's falsehood. If you make a statement that is incorrect but you fully believe it to be correct, then you are being truthful because you are saying what you "truly" believe. You aren't "lying" as opposed to being "truthful" in that case, yet you are still factually wrong. Likewise, and similarly, we disagree on the use of the term's "fact" and "proof". That said, I believe when a person "truthfully" makes a statement they believe to be fact then we should consider that valuable information until it is "proven" incorrect. For the life of me, I don't know why you continue to pound on poor old DeWitt since I've repeatedly stated that I don't give much weight to his statements since they don't represent proof of who Brushy really was. I don't agree at all with you assertion that DeWitt's statements prove Brushy was Oliver P. Roberts. Brushy was pretending to be Oliver Roberts as far back as prior to 1910 and probably met DeWitt around that time. He probably confided who he really was and DeWitt believed him. Whether that is correct or not, it doesn't prove Brushy was Billy. But at the same time, if it is basically correct, it doesn't prove DeWitt was intentionally "lying" either, as in "making statements he knew to be false".
So again, what about the affidavits I do place credence in. They aren't "proof" of Brushy's identity either and I never said they were. I've said they help convince me of Brushy's identity as Billy.
You believe that John C. Able's presence in Travis County in 1870 and in Uvalde County in 1880 means that he never went anywhere but those two places during that "10 year" period? In the year 2000, I lived in Fort Lauderdale, FL. In the year 2010, I lived in Pasco, Washington. Those are facts. One day, the census will be released to show that. But the census will never show that in between those years, I lived in Slidell, LA, New Orleans, LA and traveled extensively throughout the United States, and BTW, met people from all over this country who never lived in the same city I did. Since we know that Billy traveled up and down the Pecos selling stolen cattle can we assume there's any kind of proof that John C. Abels never set foot in the same locale as Billy sometime between 1870 and 1881? I think not.
You asked above about my high standard of proof. Please tell me what statement I made using the word proof or proven that led you to that question. You see a lack of proof of one thing as proof that another is true fact. I continually suggest nothing has been proven one way or another. If that is a high "standard of proof" then so be it, but please don't put words in my mouth as if I've claimed proof where there is none, unless I actually said it. That won't win points for your side in this debate. Not in my opinion.
Can I not state that I am fully convinced Brushy was Billy The Kid, even though I don't have proof of it? I think I will reserve the right to do that, whether anyone else wants to allow it or not. Can you state it is a proven fact that Brushy was "not" Billy The Kid even though I disagree with your so called "proof". Sure you can.
Therein lies my higher standard of proof.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 3, 2015 16:22:13 GMT -5
" I don't know why you continue to pound on poor old DeWitt since I've repeatedly stated that I don't give much weight to his statements since they don't represent proof of who Brushy really was. "
Has it occurred to you that Morrison's ready acceptance of DeWitt' sworn affidavit casts doubt on the validity of all five affidavits? DeWitt swore that he had known Brushy Bill as Biiiy the Kid for most of his life. DeWitt was born long after Billy the Kid was killed in Nm in 1881 and could never have recognized Brushy Bill as Billy the Kid.
You can debate and rationalize until Hell freezes over, but records exist that PROVE Martile was about 7 years old living in Lampasas County, TX, in 1880, and John C. Abel was 19 years old and living in Uvalde County, TX, in 1880. They married in the 1890's. There is no credible record or document that suggests either one of them ever saw or met Billy the Kid in Pecos or elsewhere.
Robert E. Lee swore that he knew Brushy Bill as Billy the Kid with the Wild West Show. That is meaningless, unless R. E. Lee had seen Billy the Kid before 1881. That evidence has not been presented.
Severo Gallegos was initially unwilling to Identify Brushy Bill as Billy the Kid. Severo correctly said that Brushy Bill appeared to be too young. He was correct. A 90 year old man would look older than the 70 year Brushy Bill.
Presumably, both Severo Gallegos and Jose B. Montoya had actually seen Billy the Kid prior to his reported death. That does not mean that either one could provide positive identification based on their childhood memories.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 3, 2015 18:01:09 GMT -5
"Since we know that Billy traveled up and down the Pecos selling stolen cattle can we assume there's any kind of proof that John C. Abels never set foot in the same locale as Billy sometime between 1870 and 1881? I think not."
Upon what do you base the statement of fact that Billy traveled up and down the Pecos selling stolen cattle? Is that from Brushy Bill' recitation of his imaginary exploits from 1881 until 1910? Is it from one of the dubious and discredited affidavits?
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Post by Wayne Land on May 4, 2015 10:34:34 GMT -5
Taken verbatim from Martile Able's affidavit with important wording highlighted.
"This affiant further states that "the family" was well acquainted with William H. Bonney, known as Billy The Kid; that Mr. John C. Able, the "husband of this affiant", knew Wm. Bonney years before around Pecos, Texas, where the group of friends had a picture made in 1880, which picture is a good likeness of Wm. Bonney; that Wm. Bonney visited with "the Able family" before, and after, the time it was said Pat Garrett killed him in New Mexico; that John C. Able brought Wm. Bonney to their house on one day when he caught a horse for Bonney to ride out; that this affiant cooked a meal that day that he ate in hiding; ......."
Please note she does not say "she" knew Wm. Bonney before 1881. She says "the family" was well acquainted with him and then goes on to specify that it was her "husband" who knew him years before around Pecos. I believe that when she uses the terms "the family" she is not intending to suggest that she herself was a member of the Able family before 1881. If you take her words to mean literally what she says rather than what you want to believe she says, then I see no reason to suggest she was lying.
In fact, there is good reason to believe she was not lying. She had met a different Billy claimant years before and she denied he was the real deal. If she was only out to achieve notoriety or was interested in lying about any of it, why not identify that first one as Billy?
I believe the likely facts here are that John C. Able and Billy The Kid were acquainted, that Billy had been in the Pecos area at the same time as John and they had been friendly some time prior to 1881, that Billy's notoriety motivated John to tell his wife Martile all about it some years later, and that Billy/Brushy later visited John and Martile at which time John introduced him to his wife. She believed her husband was stating true fact and she testified to those facts in her affidavit.
I don't consider her statements to be "proof" of Brushy's claim but I think it is totally logical and appropriate to consider them as "supportive" of his claim.
Now, with all due respect, I'm not going to discuss DeWitt Travis anymore. I've already stated multiple times that while he may have been truthful in his comments, there is little there that I consider to be important.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 5, 2015 17:16:42 GMT -5
Agreed. No need to belabor the meaningless affidavit of DeWitt Travis. He was a kind hearted soul. He paid the undertaker for J. Frank Dalton's burial in Granbury, and attended Brushy Bill's funeral even though he mistakenly swore that he was Billy the Kid.
Martile, like DeWitt, may have honestly believed that she was telling the truth. Positive identification of Bloody Bill as Billy the Kid requires that either Martelia Bilberry Abel or John C. Abel saw or met Billy the Kid prior to his reported 1881 death. Martile was 7 years old in 1880. John was 19 years old in 1880. Billy the Kid was believed to be about 21 at the time of his reported death. During 1878, 1879, and 1880, Billy the Kid was apparently participating in the Lincoln County war. Was it during this time period that Billy the Kid was selling stolen cattle up and down the Pecos River valley in New Mexico? The "family" of Martile and John did not exist at that time. The "family" of Martile's parents lived in Lampasas County, Texas. The "family" of John C. Abel's parents lived in Uvalde County, Texas. How could either Martile, John, or "family" have met or seen Billy the Kid in 1878, 1879, or 1880? So did the 4 year old Martile see and recognize Billy the Kid? Did the 16 year old John C. Able travel from central Texas to the Pecos River valley of New Mexico, a round trip of about 1,000 mile?
I am incredulous that anyone is willing to accept without question facts as stated in a sworn affidavit while denying that a request in Zerelda's last will and testament to be buried between her dead sons is proof that Jesse Woodson James was dead.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 5, 2015 23:55:46 GMT -5
We don't know exactly what Martile meant by the expression "the family". She didn't specify. In fact, we don't even know for certain that she was quoted correctly in the affidavit she signed. The intent of the testimony she gave was that she was certain Brushy was the real Billy The Kid. Morrison, unfortunately, did a rather poor job of nailing down specifics.
BTW, it's 316 miles from Uvalde County, TX to Pecos, TX where Martile says John knew Billy. Also, in the affidavit it states that she and John had lived in Carlsbad, NM for a time. That's a short trip from Pecos, TX. You can't just insist that "the family" and John and Martile were only in Uvalde County.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 6, 2015 16:48:59 GMT -5
"BTW, it's 316 miles from Uvalde County, TX to Pecos, TX where Martile says John knew Billy. Also, in the affidavit it states that she and John had lived in Carlsbad, NM for a time. That's a short trip from Pecos, TX. You can't just insist that "the family" and John and Martile were only in Uvalde County."
BTW, it is less than 200 miles from Lincoln, NM, to Pecos, NM. Did Martile identify the locale where John supposedly met Billy the Kid? Pecos, Texas, Pecos, New Mexico, and the Pecos River are all possibilities.
I have never said nor implied that John and Martile were ever in Uvalde County. There is a census record that shows John and his parents were in Uvalde County in 1880. At that time, Martelia was a 7 year old child living in Lampasas County.
Martile and John are known to have lived in El Paso. If they also lived in Carlsbad, New Mexico, and Pecos, Texas, or Pecos, New Mexico, what does that prove? They were married in Taylor County, Texas,in 1898. They could not possibly seen the real Billy the Kid as a couple. Whoever John brought home to dinner was an impostor. It is an historically accepted fact that Billy the Kid was killed in 1881.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 6, 2015 20:04:07 GMT -5
In the affidavit she states:
"that she was married to John C. Able in Abilene, Texas, after which they moved to a ranch on the Black River, south of Carlsbad, New Mexico, where they lived for about two years, moving to Salt Fork on the Brazos in Stonewall County, Texas: that they lived in Stonewall County a few years after which they moved back to Abilene, Texas: that they moved from Abilene to El Paso, Texas..."
She also stated her husband John had known William Bonney years before around "Pecos, Texas". Not New Mexico.
The point is that you can't know everywhere the couple lived or everywhere the Able family lived prior to 1881 by studying census records. Census records give you a snapshot of a specific moment in time and even at that, they are sometimes wrong. They certainly don't tell the whole story.
So you're saying John C. Able lied to his wife about the person that visited them? Why would he do that?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 6, 2015 22:55:38 GMT -5
Martile and John were married in 1897 or 1898 in Taylor County. Then they lived about 2 years near Carlsbad. Then they lived in Stonewall County a few years before moving back to Taylor County where they were counted in the 1900 census. Then they moved to El Paso. Martelia's obit indicates that the Abels moved to El Paso about 1902. Doesn't add up, does it?
The point is, information in a sworn affidavit does not guarantee it is correct. As you have conceded, the sworn affidavit of DeWitt Travis does not prove that DeWitt recognized Brushy Bill as Billy the Kid.
Can you find anything, anywhere, that suggests Billy the Kid, was ever in Pecos, Texas? There is no doubt that Martile's story about cooking a meal for Billy the Kid is nothing but BS.lh
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Post by Wayne Land on May 7, 2015 6:52:59 GMT -5
Jim East spoke about trips into Texas to steal cattle and sell them. I'll have to find where I read that and I will then share the specifics of what was reported as soon as I relocate that info. I don't see how you can say there is no doubt Matile's having cooked a meal for Billy is nothing but BS. She didn't say she did that prior to 1881. I'm not sure where it came from but there is a photo circulated online that identifies John Able sitting playing cards with a group standing around and Billy is identified as the one holding a fiddle. This may be the photo Martile was referring to. So regardless of all your findings of where everyone was and could not have been, there is evidence that suggests John knew Billy and if Martile says John brought Billy to visit them and she cooked a meal, then I don't feel you can just dismiss her claims as BS.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 7, 2015 11:28:31 GMT -5
BS is BS. Billy the Kid participated in the Lincoln County War. His reported death was 1881. Brushy Bill CLAIMED that he was Billy the Kid. Sightings of, or encounters with, someone purporting to be Billy the Kid after 1881 are not credible without convincing proof. No one has ever presented any credible evidence or proof that Pat Garrett failed to kill Billy the Kid. No one has ever presented any credible evidence or proof that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. No one has ever presented any record that supports the parents of Brushy Bill as "Wild Henry" Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn.
Billy the Kid was killed in 1881. Martile was 7 years old in 1880 in Lampasas County, Texas. Martile did not prepare a meal for Billy the Kid as she swore to in her affidavit. Martile told an El Paso newspaper reporter in 1950 that she had met Billy the Kid, and that he was using the name of Brushy Bill. The affidavit of Martile Abel is not credible.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 7, 2015 21:57:28 GMT -5
I don't need to tell you I disagree with your statements, but, I do.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 8, 2015 10:25:25 GMT -5
"I don't need to tell you that I disagree with your statements, but, I do."
Do you disagree with the fact that Pat Garrett claimed to have killed Billy the Kid in 1881? Do you disagree with the fact that Find A Grave Memorial #121263674, the 1880, and 1900 census all show that Martelia Bilberry Abel was born in 1873 or 1874? Do you disagree with the fact that positive identification of Billy the Kid after 1881 would be possible only if either Martile or John C. Abel had seen BtK prior to 1881? Do you disagree with the fact that John C. Abel and Martile were married about 1897, based on the 1900 census which shows they have been married about 3 years; the ages of their children from their first marriages; and the age of the child from their current marriage? Do you disagree with the fact that Martile stated in her sworn affidavit that John brought BtK home and that she cooked a meal? Do you disagree with the fact that John brought someone home after 1900 that Martile thought was Billy the Kid? Do you agree that Martile could not have cooked a meal for Billy the Kid prior to 188-2?
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Post by jgaines on May 8, 2015 11:11:02 GMT -5
Truth Teller: Are you saying that a 7 year old cant know people ? or can't know someone older than they? Are you saying that a person can't possibly have talked to someone or have known someone beyond a certain distance from their recorded residence ? You do realize that 99.9 % of things that happened in the past and do happen every day are NOT recorded. Dig up Brusy, dig up Ollie's mother - then we would really know something.
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