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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 21, 2015 19:01:21 GMT -5
According to census records I think she would have been about 29 or so.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 21, 2015 19:47:14 GMT -5
"I disagree. Among other things, I consider the signed affidavits as "evidence". They are evidence that certainly would be admissible in a court of law." True statement.
An affiant is strictly responsible for the truth and accuracy of the contents of the affidavit. If false statements are made, the affiant can be prosecuted for perjury.
Cross-examination on an affidavit is for the purpose of testing the truth of the statements in the affidavit.
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Post by MissyS on Feb 21, 2015 20:11:44 GMT -5
I think it's possible Martile was misquoted about that 1883 date, she must have seen him before she was married and after?, it's not mentioned in Jameson's book only the 1902 date, she did make reference that she seen him before and after he was supposedly shot in 1881, that must have been as a child?, What she wrote in her affidavit matters most to me, Also was there any handwriting comparisons done to that strange letter? and Thanks for posting it.
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Post by MissyS on Feb 21, 2015 21:09:09 GMT -5
What about Robert E. Lee's affidavit?, or Jim Tully's who signed one saying Brushy could speak spanish as good as a native? Do the naysayers believe they are lying too?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 21, 2015 22:27:09 GMT -5
As a heretic excommunicated from the Brushy Bill congregation, I do not expect this explanation to be welcome.
Who are "the boys"? Thomas Ulysses Roberts, brother of Oliver P. Roberts, had 4 sons. The two older sons were about 30. The two younger ones might have served in the armed forces during WWII, and might not have been discharged. Thomas Crouch Roberts was born 19 January 1922. Wayne B. Roberts was born about 1925. Those were probably "the boys".
"why is he talking about Billy The Kid as if he is someone else"
Brushy's buddy from Gregg County, J. Frank Dalton, had provided the Lawton, Oklahoma, Constitution a notarized affidavit signed 24 April 1948 that was published 19 May 1948. The affidavit stated that he was Jesse Woodson James, born 5 September 1848. (He had previously reported his date of birth as 8 March 1848 on his Texas Confederate pension application.) Dalton's claim received nationwide publicity. Brushy Bill saw the excitement generated by the "discovery" of a famous outlaw. A year later, Brushy Bill was already planning to announce that he was Billy the Kid. He had been reading many publications about the Lincoln County War, Pat Garrett, and the killing of Billy the Kid. He probably recorded important facts in his notebooks (some of which were never found after his death). He was writing Uncle Kit Carson (Ora Woodman, another impostor). Ora claimed to have been captured by Apache Indians as a child, and given the name of "Two Braids" He published a booklet, in 1910, " Captured by the Apaches: Forty Years With This Savage Band of Indians, A True Story by "Two Braids". From about 1930 until his death in 1957, he lived in Roswell as Uncle Kit Carson. Ora had been a performer int he Wild West shows. Brushy Bill needed believable information about the shows of Buffalo Bill, Pawnee Bill, and the old West, where Uncle Kit Carson had performed. Brushy Bill, without expressly stating that he planned to come out as Billy the Kid, certainly brought up the subject of Billy the Kid, going so far as saying that he would do his best to get Billy the Kid (Brushy Bill) to come by and see him.
The logical question is, "Where did Brushy Bill meet or hear about Uncle Kit Carson?" He was certainly not the father of Brushy Bill. Ora was a performer in Wild West shows in Texas.
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Post by MissyS on Feb 22, 2015 4:04:21 GMT -5
Couldn't "The Boys" also mean The Jesse Evans Gang?, they were known and called "The "Boys", maybe some of them was in some war? maybe Brushy met Uncle Kit Carson in his Billy The Kid days?, I don't understand if Brushy had to resort to sending a letter that makes little sense to a shady character just to get believable information about Wild West shows and such so he can become Billy The Kid, then why go through that trouble and just leave out the Wild West shows altogether?, he didn't need to include that to be Billy The Kid. " The Boys" very well could be Brushy's nephews or family members, and maybe Brushy met Uncle Kit while performing in those shows himself? If Brushy did in fact write that letter and the actual letter still exists then maybe handwriting comparisons can be done with it and Billy The Kid's.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 22, 2015 10:22:12 GMT -5
THE LETTER
"Dear Uncle Kit Carson." He was born Oran Ardious Woodman on December 30, 1870, in Zanesville, Illinois, child of Hiram and Samantha Woodman.
"Love and best wishes to you from your son, O.L. Roberts" He claimed to have been born 31 December 1859.
Why is Ollie addressing Uncle Kit, a man 10 years younger than Ollie claimed to be, as Dad? Why is he signed the letter as his son, O. L. Roberts? That makes about as much sense as Ollie's imaginary genealogy and fabulous mythical exploits.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 22, 2015 11:32:32 GMT -5
"Why is Ollie addressing Uncle Kit, a man 10 years younger than Ollie claimed to be, as Dad? Why is he signed the letter as his son, O. L. Roberts? That makes about as much sense as Ollie's imaginary genealogy and fabulous mythical exploits."
Exactly! That's why I think the letter was written so "uncle kit" could read between the lines and know what Brushy meant, without writing anything that would incriminate him. He had not yet announced to the world that he was Billy and was not convinced he could do so without being sent straight to the noose. Obviously, "Dad" was just a term of endearment or a nickname. And "your son" was an ongoing joke between the two of them.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 22, 2015 14:41:37 GMT -5
"Why is Ollie addressing Uncle Kit, a man 10 years younger than Ollie claimed to be, as Dad? Why is he signed the letter as his son, O. L. Roberts? That makes about as much sense as Ollie's imaginary genealogy and fabulous mythical exploits."
Exactly!
That sounds as if you are agreeing that the letter makes as little sense as Ollie's fabricated family and incredible, unbelievable, exploits.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 22, 2015 14:47:27 GMT -5
Let's not quibble over semantics. I'm sure understood what I meant. If you try and read the letter as if it literally means what it says, it makes no sense at all. But if you're "uncle Kit" and you know the person writing the letter is actually Billy The Kid, you read the hidden meaning it contains rather than the literal words. Fact is, that's the only way it makes sense and Brushy was not non-sensical.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 22, 2015 16:56:55 GMT -5
"That's why I think the letter was written so "uncle kit" could read between the lines and know what Brushy meant, without writing anything that would incriminate him. He had not yet announced to the world that he was Billy and was not convinced he could do so without being sent straight to the noose. Obviously, "Dad" was just a term of endearment or a nickname. And "your son" was an ongoing joke between the two of them."
"If you try and read the letter as if it literally means what it says, it makes no sense at all. But if you're "uncle Kit" and you know the person writing the letter is actually Billy The Kid, you read the hidden meaning it contains rather than the literal words. Fact is, that's the only way it makes sense and Brushy was not non-sensical."
Uncle Kit Carson was a showman that apparently had been with the Buffalo Bill and Pawnee Bill shows, and later had his own show. He had written a pamphlet in 1910 under the name of Tommy Stringfield, a story about his 40 years with the Indians. Previously, History of Oklahoma and Indian Territory and Homeseeker's guide, By J. L. and Ellen Puckett, Vinita, Oklahoma, Chieftain Publishing Company, 1906, related Two Braids" story of living with the Indians. Brushy, in preparation for his debut as Billy the Kid, was giving Uncle Kit Carson a heads up before he visited him to gain first hand information about the Wild West shows and Indian stories to make his yarns more convincing.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 22, 2015 20:38:07 GMT -5
"Brushy, in preparation for his debut as Billy the Kid, was giving Uncle Kit Carson a heads up before he visited him to gain first hand information about the Wild West shows and Indian stories to make his yarns more convincing"
I don't see how you get that from the letter. Even if there's hidden meaning there I don't see how you arrive at your theory.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 22, 2015 22:19:29 GMT -5
"That's why I think the letter was written so "uncle kit" could read between the lines and know what Brushy meant, without writing anything that would incriminate him. He had not yet announced to the world that he was Billy and was not convinced he could do so without being sent straight to the noose. Obviously, "Dad" was just a term of endearment or a nickname. And "your son" was an ongoing joke between the two of them."
Nothing in that explanation addresses the obvious. Why was Brushy Bill contacting Uncle Kit Carson? Why would Brushy Bill suspect that Uncle Kit Carson might reveal his supposedly real identity as Billy the Kid? Uncle Kit Carson hardly seems the sort to blow the whistle on another fraud.
"I don't see how you get that from the letter. Even if there's hidden meaning there I don't see how you arrive at your theory."
Follow the bouncing ball 1. Brushy Bill's buddy, J. Frank Dalton went from a local entertaining storyteller to a national celebrity overnight by announcing he was the long dead Jesse Woodson James. 2. Brushy Bill was aware of, and knowledgeable about, Billy the Kid, Pat Garrett, and the Lincoln County War. 3. Brushy Bill had knowledge of, or may have met, Uncle Kit Carson, previously know as Orion Woodman, Two Braids, Tommy Stringfield, Ora Woodman, perhaps from a visit to a wild west show. 4. Two months later after the letter date, Brushy Bill told William V. Morrison he was Billy the Kid, and was prepared with a long list of his unbelievable life events. 5. Brushy Bill and Uncle Kit Carson both claimed: a. living with Indians b. past employment with Buffalo Bill's wlld west show c. past employment with Pawnee Bill's wild west show d. past employment as a deputy marshall in the Oklahoma territory e. participation in the Rough Riders f. past employment as a scout g. past employment at the Chisum ranch
Brushy Bill wrote to Uncle Kit Carson to get a tutorial on the old west in preparation for his turn in the spotlight. When Brushy Bill announced that he was Billy the Kid, he was suitably prepared with all the information he had recorded in his notebooks from stories he had read and Uncle Kit Carson's tales.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 23, 2015 1:22:45 GMT -5
I still don't see anything in the letter that suggests Brushy was trying to get some coaching on how to fake being Billy The Kid. BTW, when and how did Oliver P. Roberts, a nobody from VanZandt County, TX come into contact with and get to know Orion Woodman, alias "Uncle Kit Carson?"
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 23, 2015 14:26:15 GMT -5
Wayne, With your extensive knowledge of Billy the Kid prior to 1882, I am sure you can come up with an explanation why Billy the Kid wanted to meet with another teller of tall tales, and why Brushy Bill was not afraid of being recognized, apprehended, arrested, and tried for murder on a trip to Roswell.
Brushy Bill had no fear of being recognized as Billy the Kid because he wasn't, and Brushy needed as much background material as possible to support his claim that he was Billy the Kid.
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