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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 17, 2015 10:54:07 GMT -5
Morrison obtained five sworn affidavits. DeWitt Travis, Martile Able, Severo Gallegos, Jose B. Montoya, and Robert E. Lee all swore that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
DeWitt Travis signed an affidavit saying that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Not possible. DeWitt was born about 8 years after the reported death of Billy the Kid. DeWitt Travis was born 28 March 1890 and died 26 February 1961.
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Post by jgaines on Feb 17, 2015 15:56:46 GMT -5
So by your logic, I wouldn't be able to sign an affidavit identifying an older brother because he was born before me. My dad couldn't sign an affidavit identifying his wife because she is older than he ? By your standard, I guess unless you witnessed the birth, you don't really know who anyone is. Which, if you want to think in those extremes is a valid point. Things CAN be true without irrefutable evidence to prove it. The birth date on my birth certificate is off by two days. My parents know, my grandparents know, and it is a fact, but its a fact that might be hard or impossible to prove. It doesn't make it untrue.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 17, 2015 17:26:25 GMT -5
If you have an older brother, it is quite possible that you both lived in your parents household. Reason enough for you to conscientiously sign an affidavit in good faith that he was your brother. Granted, errors exist in birth certificates, census records, tombstones, and especially books claiming Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
No logic. Just a fact. Anyone can sign any affidavit attesting to anything, which is what DeWitt did. How could DeWitt have known that Brushy was Billy the Kid? Brushy told him. Did DeWitt ever meet or see Billy the Kid in New Mexico before he was allegedly killed by Pat Garrett? No. He was born over 8 years after the death of William Henry McCarty Antrim.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 17, 2015 18:02:52 GMT -5
There is no doubt that DeWitt and Brushy Bill knew each other. DeWitt must have thought highly of Brushy Bill. He signed an affidavit. He attended the funeral of Brushy Bill in Hico as reported 30 December 1950 in the Lubbock Avalanche Journal. This is the excerpt from the article about DeWitt's attendance: "Among the mourners today was DeWitt Travis of Longview, who said he's known Brushy Bill for 60 years and knew he was the Kid". (The funeral was in 1950; DeWitt was born in 1890, so DeWitt was 60 at the time.)
The death certificate of Elbert DeWitt Travis shows he was born in Van Zandt County, Texas. Could be wrong of course. The 1900 and 1910 census records show that he resided in Van Zandt County in the household of his mother, Ann Patterson Travis.
DeWitt, taken at his word, said that he had known Brushy Bill from his birth in 1890. That statement, if true, means that DeWitt had known Oliver P. Roberts beginning in 1890 before Oliver P. morphed into Oliver L. Roberts, then Brushy Bill, and finally Billy the Kid. DeWitt's claim is not completely credible, for Oliver P. Roberts was living in Hopkins County in 1900, but was in Van Zandt County some time before 1909.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 18, 2015 0:43:09 GMT -5
According to Travis' December 12, 1951 notarized affidavit: "My mother, Martha Ann Patterson, and Brushy Bill's mother were girlhood friends -- in fact, friends through life. With this background I have known Brushy Bill intimately all my life." In addition, Travis stated that his father, Elbert Travis fought with Billy's father (J. H. Roberts) during the Civil War.
Were his statements true? Who knows? They could have been. But I think they're very suspect. I don't know which mother he was referring to, Mary Adeline Dunn or Oliver P's mother but if you read his entire statement it sounds like he is referring to Mary Adeline Dunn. The problem is, she died in the 1860's so she wasn't likely a childhood friend of his own mother. It's just a confusing statement and difficult to accept at face value. But whether his statements are true or not does not change who Brushy was. Either way, I still believe Brushy was the real Billy The Kid.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 18, 2015 12:34:49 GMT -5
Wayne, I think you are correct. The statements of Travis DeWitt are confusing, although there is some truth mixed in with the fiction. HIs mother was Ann Patterson Travis. That part is true. Ann married Elbert DeWitt Travis Sr. Ann is buried in the Myrtle Springs Cemetery in Van Zandt County. Her birth and death dates on the monument are 16 April 1851 to 28 June 1932. Brushy Bill claimed that he was born 31 December 1859 when Ann was eight years old. Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts is buried in the Hillcrest Cemetery in Van Zandt County. Her birth and death dates on the monument are 24 August 1856 to 29 August 1924. She was younger than Brushy Bill's claimed birth date of 31 December 1859. DeWitt Travis was blowing smoke when he claimed his mother (either one of them) and Brushy Bill's mother were childhood friends.
Of course, the obvious explanation for the affidavit is that DeWitt Travis, as a teenager, and Oliver P. Roberts, were both living in Van Zandt County. DeWitt possibly met Oliver P. Roberts between 1900 and 1930. Oliver was only 12 years older than DeWitt. After Oliver P. "Brushy Bill" claimed to be Billy the Kid, DeWitt could truthfully attest to the fact that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid if he believed Brushy's story. DeWitt was born long after Pat Garrett reportedly shot Billy the Kid. DeWitt could not have seen the Billy the Kid that was in the Lincoln County wars. DeWitt could not have possibly identified Brushy as the Billy the Kid that he had never seen.
The affidavit of DeWitt Travis proves that he knew Oliver P. Roberts.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 18, 2015 18:50:36 GMT -5
That's why I never mention Travis' affidavit as evidence Brushy was the Kid. What Travis says doesn't make it clear how he could have known for a fact that Brushy was Billy. But remember he didn't say he had known him prior to 1881. He said he'd known Brushy his (Travis') whole life. However, that does not mean he was basing his identification solely on what Brushy had told him. If he was actually referring to Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson as Brushy's mother then yes, she and his mother could have known each other since childhood. The question I think is, if you want to believe Travis had real knowledge of Brushy being the Kid, how did he know that. Did some member of the Roberts family confirm it? I doubt that. He does talk about seeing Brushy's scars and describes them more specifically than probably any other person does. I tend to think he just became personally convinced by Brushy himself. That doesn't give his affidavit a great deal of weight in the whole scheme of things. But it doesn't make him wrong either.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 18, 2015 23:16:05 GMT -5
Wayne, "That's why I never mention Travis' affidavit as evidence Brushy was the Kid. " "That doesn't give his affidavit a great deal of weight in the whole scheme of things." "I tend to think he just became personally convinced by Brushy himself. "
I agree completely with your assessment.
"If he was actually referring to Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson as Brushy's mother then yes, she and his mother could have known each other since childhood."
Could be, although census records do not indicate that as a possibility. Martha Ann Patterson was born in Louisiana where she was in Claiborne Parish in the 1860 census. She married E. D. Travis 13 August 1874 in Navarro County, Texas. The Travis family was in Van Zandt County by 1880 when she was no longer a child. All that is known about Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson's early life is her birthplace. She consistently reported in every census that she was born in Arkansas, and that her mother was born in Arkansas. Consistency over that time span lends credibility to her responses. Sarah apparently knew nothing about her father. All four census records show a different birthplace: Tennessee; Virginia; Georgia; and United States. Since she has never been identified in a census prior to 1880, it appears that she never knew her father.
The affidavit of DeWitt Travis provides no proof that Brushy Bill escaped from Lincoln County in 1881.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 19, 2015 12:29:13 GMT -5
The affidavit of Severo Gallegos has some credibility. There was a Severo Gallegos in Lincoln County in 1880 census. He was 10 years old and could have actually seen Billy the Kid. Morrison was soliciting affidavits in 1949 or 1950. Seventy years had passed since Pat Garrett killed someone in the dark. Brushy Bill's travels had taken him to many places, but he did not mention returning to New Mexico. Had Severo retained a clear visual image in his memory of a 20 year old Billy the Kid for 70 years? Apparently there is only one known photograph of Billy the Kid, and Severo was unlikely to have had access to that picture. How much had the appearance of a young man changed over 70 years? The appearance of a ninety year old man scarcely resembles his appearance as a twenty year old. It seems highly unlikely that Severo could have made a positive identification without coaching from William V. Morrison.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 19, 2015 13:18:03 GMT -5
I disagree a bit with that assessment. It has been my experience that personal recognition is much more enduring than we often think it would be. Because the recognition factor includes the way a person smiles, the way they frown, the way their eyes blink, the way they walk, the sound of their voice, and many other very small nuances that are unique to that person beyond the facial characteristics that show in a photograph. Aging changes our appearance as to wrinkles, graying hair, etc. but it doesn't change all those little factors that are almost indescribable. Those things don't show in a photograph but they are often strong enough to become indelible parts of our memory. I've known literally thousands of people in my lifetime because I taught high school band for 18 years. I've had personal experience of coming across a former band student I had not seen in 40 years and even though I didn't have much conscious memory of how they looked, once I heard the voice and saw the body language there was no doubt in my mind who I was talking to. Of course this individual memory of a person can vary in strength depending on the role they played in my life. For example, I probably wouldn't be able to recognize a former student who was in my music appreciation class or was last chair clarinet out of 25 nearly as well as I would recognize someone who was first chair trumpet in the all state band. But in Severo's case we're talking about Billy The Kid. He was important enough that a young boy of 10 would remember all those little nuances of his persona for 70 years. Yes I think he would have recognized. Even so, remember Severo initially had his doubts. Not because he didn't recognize Billy, but because he was taken aback that Billy looked younger than 90. So he needed further evidence before being willing to sign an affidavit. That evidence was provided when he took a closer look at the eyes. I believe that whole story is extremely logical and credible.
I'll give you an even better example. I was 11 years old when I took my first sax lesson from Prentiss D. Melder. He's passed on but if still with us today he would be about 90 years old. If Prentiss Melder walked into my office today at the age of 90, with me thinking he was dead years ago, there is no way under the sun I wouldn't recognize him. He was an indelible part of my childhood memories just as I believe Billy The Kid was in Severo Gallegos' memories.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 19, 2015 16:03:12 GMT -5
Your argument has some merit. Repeated interaction with band students would leave a stronger imprint of physical characteristics and behavioral patterns, and increase the probability of recognition after a very prolonged period of time. Severo was probably born about 1870. Memory of traumatic or other significant events probably begins about the age of five, or 1875. Billy the Kid was on the move from 1875 until 1881, although he must have spent some time in Lincoln. No one knows how many times, if any, that Severo saw Billy the Kid, or if anyone told Severo that he was looking at Billy the Kid.
Severo's identification of Oliver Pleasant Roberts as Billy the Kid is questionable at best.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 19, 2015 16:12:41 GMT -5
Severo is the one who went and got a rope for Billy as he was trying to ride out of Lincoln the day he killed Ollinger and Bell. I doubt Severo didn't know he was Billy. Severo himself said he had seen Billy on a number of occasions. We have no reason to assume he was lying. The fact that he had some reservation in identifying Brushy right away (until he took a close look at his eyes) indicates he was making every effort to be correct in his task. This is not the behavior of a liar.
I really have to point out that in my opinion, Severo did not identify Oliver Pleasant Roberts as Billy The Kid. He identified William H. Roberts as Billy The Kid.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 19, 2015 19:33:42 GMT -5
Lots of "ifs" here. If Severo knew Billy the Kid. If the story that Severo got a rope for Billy is true. If Severo said he had seen Billy on a number of occasions. If Severo remembered how Billy's eyes looked after 70 years. If Severo was not coached by William V. Morrison.
"I really have to point out that in my opinion, Severo did not identify Oliver Pleasant Roberts as Billy The Kid. He identified William H. Roberts as Billy The Kid."
You are correct. It is your opinion. The fact remains, there is no proof that William Henry McCarty Antrim, or Billy the Kid, was alive after 1881. There is, however, a record of Henry McCarty and Joseph McCarty as witnesses to the marriage of William H. Antrim and Catherine McCarty in Santa Fe.
There is no documented proof that Brushy Bill engaged in any of the exploits he claimed. There is no record or proof of when Brushy Bill arrived of Van Zandt County. Affidavits are not proof. The explanation supporting the lack of documentation is simple. Wanted men living under an alias leave no paper trail. The same is true of men who never existed. They leave no paper trail. Oliver Pleasant Roberts left a paper trail a mile wide from his 1879 birth until his 1950 death. There is nothing that supports the theory that Oliver P. Roberts disappeared before the 1910 just because the birthplace of his parents was shown as Kentucky in the 1910 census. There is nothing that supports Brushy Bill's story that he was Billy the Kid but the word of Brushy Bill and five affidavits of dubious veracity.
I have to point out, in my opinion, Severo Gallegos, if he identified anyone as Billy the Kid, it was Oliver Pleasant Roberts masquerading as Brushy Bill. I base that opinion on the overwhelming amount of records and documentation about the life of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, and the absence of ANY credible documentation of the exploits claimed by Brushy Bill, and the total lack of records supporting Brushy Bill's imaginary genealogy.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 19, 2015 22:28:56 GMT -5
The affidavit of Martile Able. Martile Able is buried in the Concordia Cemetery in El Paso. John C. Ables is buried there also. Martile was born 2 November 1873. She married John C. Able in 1898 in Taylor County, Texas. Her 1952 obituary said she had been a resident of El Paso for about 50 years. She was about 8 years old, living in central Texas, when Sheriff Garrett filed the fatal shot. The El Paso Herald Post of 25 November 1950 reports that Martile Able said Billy the Kid visited her in July. That must have been when William V. Morrison brought Brushy Bill to El Paso and introduced Brushy Bill to Martile as Billy the Kid. It seems extremely improbable that a young girl living in central Texas would have met Billy the Kid prior to 1881. The affidavit of Martile Able confirms that she thought Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, probably because William V. Morrison told her. The affidavit does not prove that Martile had seen Billy the Kid before 1882, or that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 19, 2015 22:41:12 GMT -5
So you think Severo Gallegos was a liar? And you think Martile who was definitely married to a man who definitely knew Billy prior to 1881 could not have had any way of knowing who he was?
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