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Post by MissyS on Sept 29, 2014 20:27:56 GMT -5
I was wondering if anyone has done any research or read any evidence to the Belle Starr part of Brushy's interview? This isnt word for word Im shortening the story but Brushy said in the lost interviews book that when he ran away from his father he went to the Indian Territory by way of the old Chisum Trail with a herd of cattle, he quit the herd at Briartown in May 1874, as he was walking along the trail a big man on a bay horse came up that asked where he was going? , he told him he was running away, the man eventually after staying a night with him took him to Belle Starr , except Brushy used her name at the time as Belle Reed, he said he did sentry or guard duty by looking out for approaching persons up on a mountain with field glasses and alerting by blowing a bugle one time for one person two times for two etc.. , he did chores, and they would go alot of times leaving no one there but a lady he called Aunt Ann, the black cook and him, he would go for provisions across the Canadian River, he said one time a man talked pretty rough to him and Belle Reed took up for him, he said she also watched him practicing shooting and seen that he was a pretty a good shot with a rifle or a six-gun with either hand , (This is Important because everyone seemed to believe he was left handed due to his photo being a mirror image, I dont believe this was known at the time of Brushy's interview? also he was said to be armedexterous by interviews with persons that knew him ) According to Brushy after three months she gave him nice clothes and $50.00 , when he left Belle Reed said "Texas Kid, anytime you want to come back, you have a home here". After he left he went to Silver City to be with his aunt Katherine Antrim. I'v been trying to do some research on Belle Starr, being a Texan and a lover of Texas history I found her story very interesting, and she was truly a remarkable lady. So far I found that her married name at the time of 1874 was indeed Reed, she did live in Indian Territory for a short time possibly other parts of Oklahoma , and in Scyene Texas , she was known to be good hearted and charitable and would take in persons that needed help, she loved children and no doubt she would have helped a runaway boy, I have been trying to cross reference the Canadian River and the Old Chisum Trail and the location of Belle's home if it was near or close to that vicinity at the time of may 1874, I did find that she married Sam Starr in 1880 and settled in Indian Territory close to the Canadian River for a time but that was in 1881? I'm trying to find reference that she lived close to there when she was a Reed and Brushy was a runaway boy around the age of 12 to15?, and if Belle Starr had descendants that can recall being told of her mentioning a Texas Kid ? I don't know where to start? But so far I'v found no reason why it couldn't have happened? I also have been trying to find an Aunt Ann, if she was Belle's Aunt? or was a nickname of the cook? There's different historical variations to the locations that Belle Reed or Starr had lived at that time, maybe someone can shed some light on more specific facts?
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 30, 2014 13:16:08 GMT -5
The Belle Starr connection has been a point of contention for a long time with the Brushy "unbelievers" insisting she did not live in the Indian Territory at the time Brushy described. It would be almost a "smoking gun" in the Brushy claim if it could be proven she did have a ranch there in 1874 or even better, if there really was an "aunt ann". I'm out of town right now but when life returns to normal I'll certainly try to help research that question. In the past my feeling about it has been expressed that just because Brushy said he "went to the Indian Territory" with a herd of cattle, doesn't mean that after he "quit the herd" that he didn't also travel some distance before he met the "man on a bay horse". I've always tried to insist that "holes" in a story do not necessarily equate to "falsehoods" and do not on their own, invalidate the entire story.
There are hundreds of questions that could have been asked of Brushy that might have clarified his claims or completed debunked them. If only Morrison would have known what holes needed to be plugged or if Brushy would have lived a few years longer and been questioned by other, more knowledgeable interviewers.
One such question relates to the photo published in Brett Hall's book as being Mary Adeline Dunn. The woman looks a great deal like Oliver P. Roberts' mother Elizabeth Ferguson and I'm pretty sure that's who it is. On the face value, this could mean Brushy was lying about the whole thing, but consider the known facts, or lack of them. We don't know specifically what Brushy said about that photo. We do know that during the later years of his life as he maintained the alias of Oliver L. Roberts, he had referred to Elizabeth as "his mother" on occasion. This would have been out of respect for her and/or in support of maintaining his cover. I've been known to call my wife's mother "Mom" even though she's not my real mothers. So I can envision Morrison and Brushy going through photos he had and Morrison asking "who's this woman" and Brushy answering "that's Mom", with Morrison then assuming that meant "Mary Adeline" when Brushy didn't mean it that way. Or maybe the photo was labeled "mom" on the back and Morrison or even Brett Hall made the false assumption it was Mary Adeline. We'll probably never know. But this "hole" does not mean Brushy was lying about being Billy The Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 30, 2014 13:51:34 GMT -5
Just found this version regarding Belle Reed.
<<In April 1874, Jim held up the Austin-San Antonio stagecoach and robbed the passengers of about $2,500. A price of $7,000 was placed on his head and he went into hiding. The law caught up with him near Paris, Texas on Aug. 6, 1874, when Jim Reed was shot to death while trying to escape from the custody of a deputy sheriff. The young widow of an outlaw, Belle left Texas, put her children in the care of relatives, and took up with the Starr clan in the Indian Territory west of Fort Smith, Arkansas. Here Belle immersed herself in outlawry: organizing, planning and fencing for the rustlers, horse thieves and bootleggers, as well as harboring them from the law.>>
Briartown is indeed not far to the west from Fort Smith. But this isn't saying Belle was there in May of 1874 as Brushy claimed. It "is" saying she was there after Aug 6, 1874. Either she went there a few months earlier than this story indicates, or Brushy was wrong about what month he went there, or Brushy lied about being there. I'll keep looking for more specifics.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 30, 2014 21:26:03 GMT -5
Wayne, thanks for finding this, for Brushy to only be a few months off makes me believe he mis judged the date, it is plausible that Brushy did meet Belle Reed/ Starr and lived with her for several months just like he said, I wish the Aunt Ann can be explained, if it could be proven Belle had an aunt named Ann or a cook or anyone close to Belle named Ann would be huge.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 30, 2014 22:53:26 GMT -5
BTW, Is there a picture of Elizabeth Ferguson? Iv seen the one of Mary Adeline Dunn. Are both pictures in Brett Hall's book? Could they be compared?
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Post by Hunter on May 26, 2019 14:56:16 GMT -5
Wayne, thanks for finding this, for Brushy to only be a few months off makes me believe he misjudged the date, it is plausible that Brushy did meet Belle Reed/ Starr and lived with her for several months just like he said, I wish the Aunt Ann can be explained, if it could be proven Belle had an aunt named Ann or a cook or anyone close to Belle named Ann would be huge. Found this today looking for an "Aunt Ann" - This is from Find a Grave for Belle Starr's mother, Elizabeth Pennington Hatfield Shirley. "Aunt" Annie Shirley, an Ex-Slave, Gives Her Recollections of the Family History - Riches Vanished With Dream-Like Suddenness. www.findagrave.com/memorial/16480340/elizabeth-pennington-shirley
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Post by Hunter on May 26, 2019 17:41:31 GMT -5
Just found this version regarding Belle Reed. <<In April 1874, Jim held up the Austin-San Antonio stagecoach and robbed the passengers of about $2,500. A price of $7,000 was placed on his head and he went into hiding. The law caught up with him near Paris, Texas on Aug. 6, 1874, when Jim Reed was shot to death while trying to escape from the custody of a deputy sheriff. The young widow of an outlaw, Belle left Texas, put her children in the care of relatives, and took up with the Starr clan in the Indian Territory west of Fort Smith, Arkansas. Here Belle immersed herself in outlawry: organizing, planning and fencing for the rustlers, horse thieves and bootleggers, as well as harboring them from the law.>> Briartown is indeed not far to the west from Fort Smith. But this isn't saying Belle was there in May of 1874 as Brushy claimed. It "is" saying she was there after Aug 6, 1874. Either she went there a few months earlier than this story indicates, or Brushy was wrong about what month he went there, or Brushy lied about being there. I'll keep looking for more specifics. This might be some help to when Belle Starr lived in Indian Territory, at the time that Brushy Bill claimed in 1874. It reads: "She married outlaw Jim Reed and lived in the Oklahoma Indian Territory at the home of outlaw Tom Star, a Cherokee." www.findagrave.com/memorial/975/belle-starrAlso, Belle's parents, John and Elizabeth (Hatfield) Shirley, moved into Carthage and her father became a prosperous innkeeper and slave holder. "Aunt" Annie Shirley was an ex-slave.
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Post by MissyS on Aug 5, 2019 0:01:51 GMT -5
Wayne, thanks for finding this, for Brushy to only be a few months off makes me believe he misjudged the date, it is plausible that Brushy did meet Belle Reed/ Starr and lived with her for several months just like he said, I wish the Aunt Ann can be explained, if it could be proven Belle had an aunt named Ann or a cook or anyone close to Belle named Ann would be huge. Found this today looking for an "Aunt Ann" - This is from Find a Grave for Belle Starr's mother, Elizabeth Pennington Hatfield Shirley. "Aunt" Annie Shirley, an Ex-Slave, Gives Her Recollections of the Family History - Riches Vanished With Dream-Like Suddenness. www.findagrave.com/memorial/16480340/elizabeth-pennington-shirleyInteresting, that there was actually an Aunt Annie. Thanks Hunter. Could the Aunt Annie also be the Aunt Ann Brushy was referring to?, if so did he read her recollections? How did he know that small detail that a person with that name lived with Belle Starr?
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Post by Wannabe on Aug 5, 2019 13:10:09 GMT -5
What I’ve found so far Wayne puts her there around 1880, not saying this is fact just what I’ve found so far.
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Post by tboor74 on Dec 31, 2020 6:53:06 GMT -5
From rootsweb.com
"Belle returned to Texas. The birth of this second child had somewhat reconciled John Shirley. He took in his daughter and the children, but Reed, "being an asset of too much value for him to remain long in one place," sought refuge in the Indian country and made periodic visits to his family by stealth. He hid out on the ranch of Tom Starr, a Cherokee, who had the reputation of being the worst Indian with whom the tribal government ever dealt. It was a remote region rarely traveled by people not friendly with the Starr clan, and therefore a safe retreat for outlaws of the Reconstruction disorder. Jim Reed had made old Tom's acquaintance about the same time the Jameses and Youngers used his place as a hide-out after the breakup of Quantrills guerrillas. Here Belle came to meet her husband, and thus became acquainted with handsome young Sam Starr, Jack Spaniard, Jim French, Felix Griffin, Blue Duck, and a host of others whose names were to grace the most spectacular period of her life."
This is 1873, so 'if' Belle Reed was staying with her husband for periods at the Starr ranch, despite officially residing at her family home, it 'could' fit the narrative. Right areas, at right times etc.
Once more, not saying that's proof of BTK or not, just an interesting titbit that adds to the tale.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 31, 2020 12:02:36 GMT -5
This is all fantastic. Chances of Brushy knowing about Aunt Ann(ie) and knowing that Belle actually was in the Indian Territory earlier than historians thought are very strong evidence. I think short of DNA proof, the closest thing to proof we'll have on Brushy are the things he knew about that OP Roberts would not likely have known. Good research guys.
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Post by RonBk on Dec 31, 2020 13:27:33 GMT -5
I agree, this is very strong evidence! Also that Brushy got it right regarding Belles last name that she was using that specific period of time. Thats amazing.
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Post by tboor74 on Dec 31, 2020 18:32:15 GMT -5
I try to remain neutral, I'm party to much info and for that I am beyond appreciative..... no matter where this leads, the extra inches are worth it....even if it's just for more debate. HNY 2021
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Post by tboor74 on Jan 23, 2021 11:10:31 GMT -5
Found this today looking for an "Aunt Ann" - This is from Find a Grave for Belle Starr's mother, Elizabeth Pennington Hatfield Shirley. "Aunt" Annie Shirley, an Ex-Slave, Gives Her Recollections of the Family History - Riches Vanished With Dream-Like Suddenness. www.findagrave.com/memorial/16480340/elizabeth-pennington-shirley Interesting, that there was actually an Aunt Annie. Thanks Hunter. Could the Aunt Annie also be the Aunt Ann Brushy was referring to?, if so did he read her recollections? How did he know that small detail that a person with that name lived with Belle Starr? Has anyone else, bar Brushy ever mentioned Aunt Annie in regards to Belle Reed/Starr?
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Post by garyabc on May 12, 2023 5:13:28 GMT -5
Brushy admits his father rode with Quantril. Belle grew up to be the famous outlaw because of her connections to Quantril's band. My supposition is that the man who helped Brushy connect with Belle was sent by his dad. My "novella" goesb like this. Brushy's dad beat Brushy in a fit of rage. When Brushy ran away his dad sent a trusted hand to guide him to a friendly harbor. No evidnce. Just connecting coincidences.
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