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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 25, 2014 15:35:08 GMT -5
Thanks to our board member Missy, I now have a copy of "Westerner" magazine printed in 1975. The magazine contains an article written by Eve Ball, well known old west author and historian reporting on an interview she had with Edith Coe, Frank Coe's daughter. For those of you who are new to all this, Frank Coe was a companion of the historic Billy The Kid and rode along side him during the Lincoln County war. And John W. Poe was one of the two deputies who were with Pat Garrett the night he allegedly killed Billy.
In this article, Edith tells how she listened to a private conversation between her father and John W. Poe in which her father asked Poe what really happened the night of the shooting of Billy. Poe said they had all lied in order to protect the reputation of a woman. He apparently had believed at the time that they were protecting Paulita Maxwell but found out later that was not the case. It reads like he had decided "after" he wrote his book that there may not have even been a woman involved. I won't try to quote word for word but Poe's remarks are very interesting. Here are some points to remember:
1) Poe said Billy approached McKinney and him from "behind" and when he asked "Quien Es" (Who is there?) McKinney answered "Friends."
This means Billy could not have been walking along the fence adjacent to the parade ground with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, while buttoning his pants, as was earlier claimed by Poe.
2) Poe said Billy immediately moved into Maxwell's bedroom while still watching the two deputies.
The way I figure it, the deputies had to be sitting outside the room more or less facing the parade ground. And for Billy to approach from "behind" he would had to have been walking along the porch, coming from another room in the house. Which explains the sock feet, etc.
3) Poe said Billy had a knife in his hand.
There was no mention of a gun in Billy's other hand. This helps to explain why no one knows what happened to Billy's gun. There was no gun.
4) Poe said that both he and McKinney "did" recognize Billy and that they were very frightened.
Billy brought a knife to a gunfight and the two deputies were "frightened"? Why? And if these comments from Poe are the truth, then why would he make up the part about telling Garrett he had "shot the wrong man."? If he did recognize Billy then he wouldn't have made such a comment to Garrett. If no such comment was made, then why fabricate that in order to protect a woman.
What do you think?
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Post by chivato1011 on Jul 25, 2014 22:16:46 GMT -5
I don't buy any of the story Garrett told about the night Billy was killed. 1. I don't see Billy walking by two strange men (Poe and McKinney) sitting on Maxwells porch. 2. Garrett states Billy had a gun in his hand. So two deputies let someone who fit Billy's description walk in a room with the sheriiff and armed. 3. Garrett stated Billy asked who are they when he came in Pete's bedroom. Pete tells Garrett that's him. Simultaneously Billy pulls his gun up and retreats backwards asking again who is it.
I don't see Billy doing this. Billy was very street smart. I think Billy would shoot first to give him time to out some distance between him and Garrett.
Garrett also tells Billy had been with a male friend before coming to Pete's is also Brushy Bills account.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 26, 2014 11:48:51 GMT -5
I don't believe anyone has ever told the complete truth about that night. I do suspect there is a bit more of it in this interview with Edith Coe than we got from anyone else including Brushy. But Poe had to be holding back part of the truth in those comments.
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Post by chivato1011 on Jul 26, 2014 13:06:47 GMT -5
Wayne, think about this. Frank Coe and George Coe knew the kid very well. Frank Come asking Poe what really happened, makes me believe several things.
1. Frank had not heard from or seen the kid since that night.
2. Frank was wanting closure in his friends death about the way he died etc...
3. Frank could know Billy was alive and was fishing for answers of who Garrett really shot and killed.
Poe said they lied to protect the reputation of a woman. I'm really thinking on this one. Several things Poe could be talking about. Could the lie be they shot tgr wrong man? Lieing about billy being armed? I'm gonna think on This some more.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 29, 2014 11:43:23 GMT -5
I believe Brushy Bill was Billy The Kid. That said, I think we can't assume that George Coe and/or Frank Coe knew he had survived past 1881. I think Salazar knew it. And I think Garrett, Poe, McKinney and Pete Maxwell knew the wrong man was killed that night. I think Poe immediately knew the man shot was not Billy. I think Poe continued to refuse to admit that part of it, the mistaken identity of the deceased, because he could be held complicit in the cover up of a criminal act. I believe that night, Garrett convinced the other two, and Maxwell, to lie because they needed to protect Paulita's reputation. Then once Poe realized that was not the case, it was too late to admit he had participated in such a cover up without risking criminal charges against himself.
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Post by chivato1011 on Jul 29, 2014 13:18:49 GMT -5
I've read numerous times Poe stated to Garrett he shot the wrong man. I also don't understand why the man killed that night would speak Spanish to Poe. Poe was Caucasian and so was Billy, unless that was that norm in that area then.
I don't understand about Paulita Maxwell's reputation. Wayne can you elaborate?
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 4, 2014 12:31:22 GMT -5
It was rumored (not proven) that Billy was having an ongoing love affair with Paulita and some believe the night he was shot, Billy had been with Paulita in a separate room in Maxwell's house. All sorts of scenarios have been proposed where Paulita was involved. However, Paulita Maxwell swore until her death that she'd had no such affair with Billy. She said she "liked" him but was not having a relationship with him.
Now back to Poe's comments according to Edith Coe. Poe said he and McKinney agreed to lie about what happened in order to "protect a woman". I have to surmise it could have happened as follows:
Garrett is in Maxwell's room and the deputies are on the porch facing the parade ground. Someone walks up behind them coming along the porch in his sock feet with a knife in his hand. They're startled, he asks "Quien Es", and McKinney replies "Friends". (I believe at this point Poe lies to Frank Coe and says they both recognized Billy. They could not have). Then this person backs into Maxwell's doorway and Garrett shoots him. Garrett comes out of the room and Poe says to him (as reported in his book) "Pat, the kid would not have come here like this, you've shot the wrong man". Then Garrett goes back in and sees the body is indeed, not that of Billy The Kid. He and Poe and McKinney, and Maxwell are still the only ones there. Garrett quickly figures out that if he wants to keep his job and stay out of jail he'd better get them to all agree to lie, so he has to have a reason to convince them. Since the dead man is in his sock feet and was obviously coming from another room in the house, Garrett says to them "we've can't let anyone know this fellow was with Paulita". We have to protect her reputation. Just say he is Billy and that he came here from another house and that he had a gun, so I had to shoot to kill. They all agree to lie. In the interview, Poe says they all lied to protect a woman but then discovered later that woman was not involved if indeed there was any woman to protect at all. He doesn't use Paulita's name but it's pretty safe to assume that's who he was referring to. So he's telling Frank Coe, he's not sure if there was "any" woman who's reputation needed to be protected. In other words, he is suggesting that Garrett made that part up in order to get their cooperation in the cover up.
Now mind you, I've injected some guess work here, but after reading through the interview Edith Coe had with Eve Ball, I believe this is pretty close to what really happened. As for Brushy, I believe he heard the gunshots and hid. Then Celsa Gutierrez, Billy's real girlfriend, told him Garrett was saying the man killed was Billy. Brushy/ Billy then realized it was too good an opportunity to pass up on and so he left Fort Sumner for Mexico. I believe the gunfight he says he had with Garrett and the deputies that night was either completely made up (to make himself more the hero) or greatly exaggerated.
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Post by marchus on Aug 5, 2014 11:22:58 GMT -5
Very interesting take on all of this indeed. I believe it fits in well with all of the different takes on what happened that night. Who is Celsa Gutierrez? Any photos of her? I was always very unsure of the relationship with Billy and Paulita that so many claimed happened. She denied it over and over and majority of it was really just speculation. I know that Deluvina Maxwell really liked and admired Billy (I am not suggesting they were involved though)but was always unsure as to the relationship of him and Paulita. I would think if she was in love with Billy that she would have come clean about there relationship eventually, at least before she died.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 5, 2014 14:07:52 GMT -5
The following is copied from another website. I'm not even sure who wrote it, but it is all I know about Celsa.
"Not much is known of Celsa's origins. Maybe because no one has really done a lot of research on her. She lived at Fort Sumner at the time Billy frequented there. She was a good friend of Billy as well. She had a husband named Saval, who was most likely either her brother or cousin as well. Celsa was also the sister of Apolonaria Garrett, Pat Garrett's wife. It has been said that Celsa was one of Billy's girlfriends. Walter Noble Burns was the first who said this. In his book, "The Saga of Billy the Kid," Burns was supposed to have a chapter all about Paulita Maxwell being Billy's girlfriend. Burns's publishers were afraid that since Paulita was still alive, she might sew them for saying she was a girlfriend of Billy's. Because of this, Burns changed every reference to Paulita to the dead Celsa. His saying that Celsa and Billy were an item was not based on fact at all. However, he still may have gotten lucky and they may have really been an item, but certainly not as big an item as Billy and Paulita. Paulita and Celsa were also friends. Brushy Bill Roberts said that after the shooting at Fort Sumner on July 14, 1881, Celsa helped him with his wounds and helped him flee."
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Post by marchus on Aug 6, 2014 14:32:59 GMT -5
Thanks so much I appreciate it! I googled her and saw this as well.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 7, 2014 8:50:01 GMT -5
I don't remember who said it, but I once read comments made by one of the residents of Fort Sumner listing the names of some of the crowd that gathered outside Maxwell's house after the shooting. Celsa Guttierez was supposedly in the crowd. Since she was Garrett's sister in law, and known to be a close friend of Billy's, it makes sense that she would have been the one to pass a message between Billy and Garrett. It isn't difficult to imagine Garrett seeing her in the crowd and asking her to help.
And Brushy said she was the one that told him Garrett was claiming to have killed him. Makes sense to me!
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Post by Denver on Sept 28, 2014 15:42:11 GMT -5
Mr. Land, the previous posted picture and writing on your website Aug. 5, 2014, is "not" Celsa Gutierrez. The photo was posted by Brett L. Hall (BrushyBret@aol.com) before 2010. B. Hall made absolutely no reply to me where it was questioned of his evidence regarding this photo. As the Grt. Grt. Grandson of Sabal & Celsa Gutierrez, I confirm there are no published or authenticated photos of Celsa on the internet nor any website. Please remove. If you have any questions, please contact me through this website, I will be frequently viewing. Thank you.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 28, 2014 21:45:56 GMT -5
Denver,
I have removed the photo since I have no documentation that would authenticate it I take your objection as being valid. I hope you'll join our board and possibly share any information you might have about your ancestor.
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Post by Denver on Oct 1, 2014 23:32:41 GMT -5
Thank you Mr. Land I have been reading posts on this site for some time now and greatly enjoy all the in-depth conversations. I will soon reveal information about Celsa after my writings are published around the end of this year in the Wild West History Association journals. My research is coming along nicely. Please visit www.wildwesthistory.org. Yours truly, Denver
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Post by timmerbergtt on Nov 19, 2014 20:41:56 GMT -5
I would like copyright permission to use some of the material off your page, especially the tabbacco paper letter for a first book I am writing, which generally supports Brushy's claim. Mckinley412@gmail.com
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