Was Jesse really killed by Robert Ford in 1882

[Wayne Land]

Just found this first rendition of Jesse with a beard. I think it is a painting based on the photo in the center with a beard added. Look at the ear shape in particular but also the distance from the corner of his eyebrow to the hairline at his temple. Then compare these features to the photo of the alleged Jesse in his coffin. I'd like to know if anyone else thinks it is obvious these are two different men. I'm not saying which known claimant, if any, was really a surviving Jesse James but I think it is pretty clear from these photos that the man killed by Robert Ford and photographed in that coffin was "not" Jesse Woodson James.

[Billy el nino]

On April 3, 1882, after eating breakfast, the Fords and James prepared to depart for another robbery. They went in and out of the house to ready the horses. As it was an unusually hot day, James removed his coat, then removed his firearms, lest he look suspicious. Noticing a dusty picture on the wall, he stood on a chair to clean it. Bob Ford shot James in the back of the head. James' two previous bullet wounds and partially missing middle finger served to positively identify the body.

[Wayne Land]

I just don't see how his hairline could have changed that much and his ears are so different. There is also a question as to which side he parted his hair on. The death photo is obviously "not" a reverse image. If you look at the photos of the full body you will see his pants overlap from the left just as they should. The death photos show the hair parted on the left. The image in the center is usually shown so that the hair is parted on the right. I flipped it because the painted image is shown flipped and I wanted to compare, but I don't know whether it really needs to be flipped to be accurate.

Bottom line is, if the images are flipped correctly the way I showed them, they can't be the same man because of the ear and the hairline. If the first two images need to be flipped the other way, then they can't be the same man because the hair is parted on the opposite side.

[mwb]

Hi Wayne,

In my opinion this is likely the same person. There is a lot of shadow in the death photo and it's taken at a different angle. You can't see the hairline clearly, but in the shadow it appears to me to go back like in the other photo. He's also aged quite a few years. If you could turn his head to the same angle and add some light, I bet it would be pretty clearly the same guy.

I may also be letting my overall skepticism of the Jesse James story affect my opinion of the photo. I think we've talked about this before on this forum, but from all I've read about Jesse and the whole controversy, I think it's highly unlikely he faked his death.

Mark.

[Wayne Land]

I don't think the difference in the hairline or the shape of the ear can be explained by a different camera angle and as for aging, the hairline recedes on top as we get older but the hair at our temples does not grow closer to our eyebrows with age. There are other images of the dead man available that are not as darkly shadowed and you can see in all of them that the distance from the eyebrow to the hairline is too close for it to be Jesse.

I'm not saying I believe J. Frank Dalton or James Courtney or anyone else in particular was really Jesse James. I'm just saying I don't think that dead man is him.

[Sam Fraser]

I must admit. Although I only know about the "death" of Jesse James and nothing else about the man, I can't help but also wonder as to wherever he actually faked his death.

[mckinley412]

If you can find I am 100 percent certain that I read in a history book about that was about historically accepted version of Jesse James, the one that says he was killed in 1882, and it mentioned that he did in fact fake his death 2 years before but he got caught. If this is true then I think it is highly likely he would have tried it a second time. There have been so many Jesse James claimants and there are books are many of them. I believe the one about Jesse James from Texas was proved to be a scam (not J FRAnk Dalton but a different guy.)

[Texas Truth Teller]

" I believe the one about Jesse James from Texas was proved to be a scam (not J FRAnk Dalton but a different guy.)"

Novels about western characters sell really well, especially those about Jesse James and Billy the Kid.

"If you have a choice between the truth and a lie, go with the lie. It sells better." anonymous

mckinley412, you are correct. The 3 books by the late Betty Dorsett Duke claiming that her great-grandfather was Jesse Woodson James were obviously fiction. James Lafayette Courtney was a Union army bugler, and received a pension for his service. That fact is documented.

J. Frank Dalton was not Jesse Woodson James. Note that his mother, in 1911, directed that she be buried between her two dead sons, Jesse W. James and Archibald Samuel.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Will of Zerelda Cole James Samuel
Page 1.
In the name of God_Amen.
I, Zerelda Samuel, of the County of Clay in the State of Missouri, being in good bodily health and of a disposing mind and memory and being desirous of settling my worldly affairs whilst I have strength and capacity to do so. Therefore, do make, publish, and declare this to be my last will and testament herein expressly revoking and making null and void all last will and testaments by me at any time heretofore made: And first, and principally, I commend my soul to God, who gave it, hoping and assuredly believing, through the only merits of Jesus Christ my Savior, to be made Partaker Of life everlasting: My body I commit to the earth to be buried by my Executor, hereinafter named , in the Baptist Cemetery at Kearney, in Said County of Clay, between my two dead sons, Archibald Peyton Samuel and Jesse W. James in such decent manner as shall befit my condition and circumstances in life: And as to all of the worldly estate, real, person, and mixed, and wheresoever situate, whereof I shall be the owner at the time of my death, I dispose thereof in manner and forms the following, to wit: -
First: It is my will that all of my just debts, funeral expenses, and the costs and charges of the execution of this last will and testament be paid by my Executor as soon as practicable after my death.
Second: I have heretofore given to my daughter Sarah Louisa Nicholson what I regard as a full, adequate, and liberal share of my property: I therefore give and bequeath to said Sarah Louisa Nicholson, in and by this last will and testament, the sum of one dollar_and no more_and I direct my Executor to pay said Sarah Louisa Nicholson said sum of one dollar in full of all gifts, bequests, and devises to her from me.
Third: I have heretofore given to my grand-daughter

Page 2:
Mary S. Barr, and done for her that which is a full and adequate expression of my bounty to her and of my love and affection for her_wherefore, I give and bequeath to said Mary S. Barr, in and by this will and testament, the sum of one dollar_and no more_and I direct my Executor to pay said Mary S. Barr said sum of one dollar in full of all gifts, bequests, and devises to her from me.
Fourth: I give and bequeath all of the rest, residue, and remainder of my person estate, absolutely, to my son, Alexander F. James, usually known as Frank James.
Fifth: I have during all the years that my husband Dr. Reuben Samuel has been a patient in the insane asylum at St Joseph, Missouri, at my own costs and charges, maintained and provided for him therein and this is as ample and faithful a manner as my circumstances permitted and inasmuch as, if he survives me, he will be tenant By the curtesy of the real estate that I shall own at the time of my death it is not necessary that I should_ nor do I hereby_make for him in this last will and testament specific or other provision, or make him any bequest or devise.
Sixth: I give and bequeath to my grandson Jesse E. James_son of my dead son, Jesse W. James_the sum of seven hundred dollars ($700) and I charge him the payment of said sum, so given and bequeathed to said Jesse E. James, on the following described real estate belonging to me, (Subject to the tenancy by the curtesy therein of my said husband, and if he survives me) situate in said County of Clay and thus described, to_wit: A part of the North-West quarter of Section No. 19 in Township No.53 of Range No.30, and a part of the East half of the North-East quarter of Section No. 24 in Township No. 53 of Range No. 31, containing in the aggregate 40 acres_and the whole bounded as follows: to_wit: Beginning at a point on the South line of said North West quarter of said Section No. 19 which is 6 and 86/100 chains East from East from the South_West corner of said quarter section, _said point of beginning to South-East corner of J. B. Crook’s two acres on March 2, 1902,_Thence running East to a point which is distant 80 poles from said South-West corner of said quarter section, thence running North 31 ½ degrees West 68 poles from to a point thence running North 14 degrees West 12 poles to a point, thence running North 34 degrees East 18 poles to a spring, thence running North 33 degrees West 43 & 4/100 poles to a point, thence running South 59 & 24/100 poles to a point, thence running East 11 & 8/100 poles to a point thence running East 54 links to a point, thence running South 12 & 4/100 chains to the North West corner of said J. B. Crook’s two acres on March 29th 1902 thence running East 6 & 32/100 chains to North East corner of said J. B. Crook’s two acres on March 29th 1902, and thence running South three & 16/100 chains to the point of beginning. And at said real estate, containing forty acres, subject to said claim in the sum of Seven hundred Dollars ($700) and subject to the tenancy by the curtesy of said husband also, if he survive me, I give and devise to my said son, Alexander F. James, and I direct him to pay said sum, so charged or said real estate within six months after my death to said Jesse E. James.
Seventh: I give and bequeath, also, so my said grandson, Jesse E. James, the further sum of three Hundred Dollars ($300) and I charge the payment of said sum so bequeathed and given to said Jesse E. James on all of the rest, residue, and remainder of

Page 4:
my real estate, situate in Said County of Clay containing about 36 acres: and the said rest, residue, and remainder of my real estate situate in said County of Clay, containing about 36 acres, subject to said charge in the sum of three hundred dollars, and subject also to the tenancy of to by the curtesy thein of my said husband if he survie me. I give and devise to my son John T. Samuel and my daughter Fannie Q. Hall, equally share and share alike: And I direct said John T. Samuel and Fannie Q. Hall to pay said sum, so charged on the rest, residual, and remainder of my real estate to said Jesse E. James within six months after my death.
Eighth: I hereby nominate, constitute and appoint my son, Alexander F. James, Executor of this, my last will and testament, and expressly request that he be not required to give any bond as such Executor.
In testimony whereof, I, Zerelda Samuel, the said testatrix, have to this my last will and testament set my hand and affixed my seal on this the 17th day of October 1907.

s/Z Samuel (SEAL)
Signed, sealed, published and declared by the said testatrix Zerelda Sameul as and for her last will and testament, in the presence of us and of each of us, who, at her request, and in her presence, and in the presence of each other, have hereto set our hand as witnesses thereunto this 17th day of October 1907.
Signed Frank Crowley
George Riley

[mckinley412]

Omg. Some of these comments. They obviously are not the same person. Who said they are a different angle?? Anyway, can someone give me a list of all the people who were thought to be Jesse at one time or another whether they claimed to be or not. It should be a fairly large list.

[RonBk]

Yes this is obviously two different persons. And since that indicates Jesse James actually did fake his own death, it may very well be Dalton was telling the truth.

[chivato88]

Here's the alleged death photo of Jesse James. 

[AshRSmith]

Jun 6, 2013 12:37:22 GMT -5 Wayne Land said:

View Attachment

Just found this first rendition of Jesse with a beard. I think it is a painting based on the photo in the center with a beard added. Look at the ear shape in particular but also the distance from the corner of his eyebrow to the hairline at his temple. Then compare these features to the photo of the alleged Jesse in his coffin. I'd like to know if anyone else thinks it is obvious these are two different men. I'm not saying which known claimant, if any, was really a surviving Jesse James but I think it is pretty clear from these photos that the man killed by Robert Ford and photographed in that coffin was "not" Jesse Woodson James.

I think I personally own a tin type of Jesse James it looks so much like him. I also have multiple that I think is billy, and one of the regulators