Post by Rufus on Sept 3, 2024 12:08:54 GMT -5
I have to hand it to you Rufus, you are quite proficient at trying to prove the unprovable. Mr. Cline made a pretty good effort too. But you haven't "proven" anything. Faith, whether blind or not, is not proof of fact. You ask what would it take to convince me. DNA would prove it but we'll likely never have that, so what else? Well, I've basically already told you. Someone, anyone who knew Oliver Pleasant Roberts in the 1880's when he was just a child and was around him until after 1910 that provided first hand witness that he was Oliver and no one else would suffice, so long as that person could be trusted to tell the truth. I think we're still talking about Cline's book. And I'm saying he doesn't sight such testimony. All he has is second hand and even though it might all be accurate, it also might not be. It's not "PROOF". Do you not understand the concept of proof vs. hearsay?
Faith is indeed evidence based. After all, if I asked if you had faith in your wife you would say of course. I'd ask you how come? You would then give me evidence for that faith: Commitment, loyalty, honesty, etc.
As for "secondary sources," let's make it a little more clear. If I wrote a book about myself, it'd be a primary source. If I told someone else my life story and they wrote it, then it's a secondary source.
What you are arguing isn't necessarily against secondary sources, but rather an assumption that if the information did not come directly from a primary source it's not admissible.
However, as I've pointed out that flies in the face of most scholarly accepted works since most books regardless of subject fall into this category. Yet they are accepted as fact or truthful. Why?
Simply because the source material is backed up by outside sources as well: Censuses, Records, etc and in the case of Brushy Bill Roberts what we find is one narrative being confirmed by such outside sources in conjunction with the witness testimonies.
The contrary view, that he is Billy The Kid, has no evidence at every conceivable level of his story as told to William Morrison:
#1- No record for a 12/31/1859 birthdate in the vicinity of Buffalo Gap Texas for a William H. Roberts
#2- No record for an Adeline Dunn or James H. Roberts marriage and/or such individuals in the Civil War or state/territory at said times
#3- No record for the death of Oliver Pleasant Roberts in the Oklahoma territory
#4- No record of land ownership outside of him owning the homestead in Mena Arkansas
#5- No record of him working for Buffalo Bill or Pawnee Bill, let alone owning and operating his own rodeo
#6- No record of him competing in any amateur or professional rodeo competition
#7- No record of him in South America or the Shetland Islands
#8- No record of him in the Pinkerton Agency
#9- No record of him as a policeman in Gladewater
#10- No record of him as a Texas Ranger
#12- No record of him having been an Indian fighter
#13- No record of him residing anywhere else but Arkansas, Oklahoma and Texas
#14- No record of him working for the Anti-Horse Thief Association
#15- No record of him being in the Spanish American War let alone the Roughriders
#16- No evidence of him being born earlier than 1879 and to anyone else but Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Ferguson Heath
#17- No evidence of him leading cattledrives all over the entire country
I think you get the general point. There's more credibility to him simply being Oliver Pleasant than there is him being Billy The Kid, otherwise all of these claims could be easily substantiated like it is for most people who actually did X, Y and Z throughout their lives.
I think it takes quite a bit of mental gymnastics in order to believe that he was who he claimed to be. If he was, he would have provided the clear-cut evidence to find the dates, records, etc to confirm it.
I could break down his story in far greater detail showing the flaws in it, such as him claiming that he got the name Bonney from Belle Starr when she wasn't even in Oklahoma at the time he claimed she was, but I'll leave that for another time.
It makes zero sense for "the real deal" to tell so many lies about himself if he was trying to prove who he was in order to get a pardon. Surely you can agree with that?
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all