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Post by nmjames on Nov 18, 2012 9:44:04 GMT -5
Wayne,
I have found out more on Frank Ranldof, Josephine and others but am going to hold off on posting it.
I was going back through some of my old notes because the letter from Jim Tully just doesn't seem right. This is what I found.
On page 70 of Morrison's book, Morrison states that he visited with M. Gallegos, (April, 1950). While talking to him, I told him that I had an old friend in my room that I would like him to meet. At my room. (I'm not going to type the whole thing but you can read it on Page 70 of Morrison's book). After several hours of visiting, he was still somewhat skeptical, but thought it might be Billy the Kid. He would not commit.
"I took him home late that night. He wanted to talk to him the next morning before we left Ruidoso. "The next morning I arrived at the Gallegos home late. He was waiting to talk to me. ..................... "When we arrived at my room. " "An affidavit of identification was executed before a notary public." Morrison and Brushy Bill went back to El Paso.
From what I am seeing, Morrison and Brushy never met at Gallegos home. I also feel if Josephine had talked to Brushy, Morrison would have known it and had her sign an affidavit.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 18, 2012 12:00:27 GMT -5
James,
I hope you'll decide to disclose the additional info you've found on Frank Randolph and Josephine, etc. or at least tell us whether it supports Jim Tully's story or casts doubts on his voracity.
As for the visit with Gallegos you are certainly correct that Morrison does not suggest he and Brushy ever went to the Gallegos home "together". But Tully's letter does not suggest they ever visited Gallegos himself at his home. The question becomes, was there an "attempted" visit Morrison never mentioned? I suggest there could have been and here's why.
I could propose the theory that when he and Brushy "tried" to visit the Gallegos home, prior to the meetings described by Morrison, they discovered he was not home, and then spoke to the neighbor Josephine just as Tully said they did. And since Brushy and Josephine conversed in Spanish (possibly she was not fluent in english), Morrison was unaware of the comments passed between them regarding the "Sedellio girl". If indeed Josephine and Morrison did not communicate much (language barrier), and Brushy didn't translate the entire conversation to Morrison, there would be no reason to assume Morrison would put such conversation in his book or even mention what he may have thought was an insignificant encounter. But Josephine recognized the importance of the exchange and passed on the story to Jim Tully who put it in a letter to Judge Hefner who shared that with Brett Hall, author of "The Real Billy The Kid". There is certainly no proof the story is accurate but at this juncture I also see no proof it is false. Of course I'd rather believe it is true, but I also want to believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty. And that includes being innocent of concocting a story like that out of thin air.
So my question to you is, do you think someone lied? Did Josephine make up this whole visit and conversation or did Jim Tully. Possibly you think Judge Hefner made it up and there never was any such letter from Tully? Or maybe you think Brett Hall just imagined the letter to Hefner? What is your opinion of how this whole story came about?
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Post by nmjames on Nov 18, 2012 13:39:27 GMT -5
Wayne,
The only new things I have are family history about ages and Frank's mother and father. You have most of it but Frank was born about 1869 late in the year. He would have only been about 10 years old. Josephine died in May 1996. If Hefner or anyone wanted to find out the truth, she was around. The letter was dated 1990.
As for the letter, you need to read your post on Oct 23, 2012 1:49 PM. Mr. Tully states: Brushy Bill was taken to the home of Severo Gallegos.
Again on Page 70 of Morrison's book he states : I visited with Mr. Gallegos talking to him. I told him that I had an old friend in my room..... At my room I introduced my friend as William H. Bonney...................... I took him home late that night. The next morning I arrived at Gallegos home late. He was waiting to talk to me. ......... I told him I would take him back ............... When we arrived at my room........................
As for the question do I thnk someone lied. As I have said before. There are all kinds of stories out there. In doing research and talking to different people, I find all kinds of stories. Some I know are not true but I look into others. The same with Joseph Woods and Mrs. Able. I try to find out if they are true or even could be true.
I am not going to get into your questions about Judeg Hefner, Brett Hall and others. I just wish that someone would do real research on Morrison and Brushy Bill Roberts and write a good book with the truth.
Again, I like the truth and facts.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 18, 2012 16:57:57 GMT -5
<<As for the letter, you need to read your post on Oct 23, 2012 1:49 PM. Mr. Tully states: Brushy Bill was taken to the home of Severo Gallegos.>>
Maybe you didn't follow my logic. Let me lay it out chronologically the way I theorize it could have happened.
1) Morrison and Brushy arrive in Ruidoso and travel together to visit Gallegos at his home. He's not there so they talk with neighbor Josephine instead. She and Brushy converse in Spanish including the comments about the Sedillo girl. Morrison is there but does not understand the conversation. They leave. 2) Morrison somehow gets word to Gallegos that he wants to meet with him ( possibly even left a message with Josephine? ) so Gallegos comes by the place where they are staying and meets Brushy. He makes no conclusion about Brushy and then Morrison takes him home. 3) The next day Gallegos meets with Brushy again to examine his eyes more closely and says he is ready to make the positive ID and signs an affidavit.
Conclusions that can be drawn:
Morrison may well have had no idea that his and Brushy's failed initial attempt to meet with Gallegos at his home was of any importance, explaining why he didn't mention it in his book. I think it is important to note here that Morrison doesn't say how he made the initial contact with Gallegos. How did Gallegos know to come and visit him at his hotel/motel? Unless there was some message left for him, a phone call, something.
Some time later, possibly years later, Josephine is speaking with Jim Tully and tells him of her successful attempt to identify Brushy. In 1990 Tully hears about Judge Hefner's efforts in Hico and sends him a letter retelling the story. Judge Hefner relays the information to Brett Hall. I buy Brett's book and relay it to you.
Now my point is, if you don't believe the incident happened then you have to believe somebody is lying don't you? So who do you think is more likely to be the culprit. This is not about stories that got passed around by anonymous people and shared to and fro making them untraceable. We have a clear chain involved here. We have Josephine to Tully to Hefner to Hall. If the story is untrue, then one of those four has to have been lying. Am I wrong here?
I mean to say, if Judge Hefner really did tell Brett Hall he had received such a letter then Brett was not lying. In turn, if Jim Tully really did send such a letter, then Hefner wasn't lying either. Then it follows that if Josephine really did tell Tully of such a meeting with Brushy then Tully is also vindicated. That leaves Josephine herself. Either she was making up a story that was a lie or the meeting really did happen. If the meeting really did happen then it is very strong evidence Brushy was indeed the real Billy The Kid. As for Frank Randolph's age at the time of the alleged romance, maybe he tagged along with Billy on more than one occasion to visit the Sedillo girl even though he was just a kid at the time. Maybe he, Frank, fancied himself to be going on a double date with Billy The Kid when in reality it wasn't quite at that level. Maybe he simply knew of the relationship between Billy and the Sedillo girl and exaggerated his involvement when retelling it years later.
It seems we may just have to agree to disagree on the possible validity of the story and move on. As for me, until I find some proof it didn't happen I will err on the side of believing what people say. Especially people who have no real reason to lie.
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Post by Bily el nino on Apr 23, 2013 23:21:26 GMT -5
Hi,I have only just found this website and I am a Big fan of Bily The Kid. I am not an expert of Billy The Kid but I do believe Brushy Bill Roberts was indeed William.H.Bonney,"Billy The Kid" because there many websites that have strong arguments on Mister Brushy Bill's case of his true indentity. But now I am satisfied as that this website has even stronger arguments that I believe Brushy Bill and would like to thank Mr Wayne for the information of who was Billy The Kid and happy to know that you shared this information and created this website.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 25, 2013 8:54:06 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments. Its great to know my efforts are appreciated and I hope you'll share some of your ideas as well.
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Post by Billy el nino on Apr 29, 2013 4:03:05 GMT -5
Hello Wayne and thank you for your reply.When I had first seen the movie Young guns I was thrilled and wanted to know more about Billy The Kid, so I went on the internet and found information on Billy The Kid on various websites and read about his life as an outlaw. I found heaps of information on him and thought he was the biggest and baddest outlaw and he was my hero.When I watched Young Guns 2 i was confused because it said on the websites that Billy The Kid had been killed by Pat Garret, so after watching that great movie with the perfect performance of Emilio Estevez, I had looked up and found Brushy Bill who had claimed to be Billy The Kid.You said in your reply that you'll hope to see some idea's and I will take you up on that offer. I have read some of the comments of other peoples' replies and some of them don't beleive that Brushy Bill was Billy The Kid and I just wanted to point out that that there wrong about Brushy Bill, I truly believe that he was Billy The Kid. It has been promoted at Brushy Bill's home town as a museum for him being Billy The Kid and the movie Young Guns 2 and Tv Shows have done segments on the true identity of Billy The kid. i just wanted to know why would Joe Hines a.k.a "Jessie Evans" say that Brushy Bill was Billy The Kid and if he wasn't why would Joe say such a thing and Brushy Bill go through all that trouble to reveal his true identity unless in fact he was really, truly Billy The Kid a.k.a Brushy Bill.I just Don't get why people don't believe him. There are a heaps of evidence suggesting he was really Billy the kid and he is the following evidence: the photo analysis of Billy The Kid and Brushy Bill was 93% match, He could slip out of handcuffs like Billy could, He had each and every scar that Billy had (and more), He spoke Spanish fluently, as if he was a native, He could read and write (his letters to Governor Lew Wallace seeking a pardon still survive), When Morrison took Brushy to visit with Severo Gallegos, Brusy spoke to Severo's mexican neighbour, Josephine Sanchez in perfect spanish, Jim Tully and others signed an affidavit he spoke spanish fluently, People like Joe Hines and Jim McDaniels and other people i could name signed affidavits that Brushy Bill was TRULY BILLY THE KID. Now that is just a start of evidence that Brushy Bill was TRULY BILLY THE KID. AND IF ALL THAT EVIDENCE DOESN'T PERSUADE PEOPLE THAT HE WAS BILLY THE KID WELL YOU GOT TO BE STUPID.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 29, 2013 10:49:24 GMT -5
Thanks for posting your ideas. I think the more you read on this, the more you'll understand why the "status quo" historians will not accept Brushy's story. Accepted history is suppose to be based on fact, never fiction. Something becomes a fact when it is proven. Example: Some folks believe Big Foot is real, but science won't accept it until there's hard proof. Some believe JFK was killed by several gunmen but history won't accept that, it won't be represented by historians as fact unless someone provides hard proof. Others feel the "proof" is already there for Brushy's story, but until there is "hard proof" such as a DNA match or someone discovers a confession from Pat Garrett that is documented, historians will not accept that there's proof. Just as much as there are some of us who would love to find the proof, there are others who prefer the traditional legend. They see Billy as something of a martyr and they don't want the importance of his death to be detracted from by Brushy's story. Those folks continue to seek proof that Brushy was a fraud.
And the debate goes on, and on, and on, and on and.......
I always encourage anyone who is interested in this debate to examine all the evidence both for and against Brushy's claim. And there are mountains of both. I won't start listing it here, but the bulk of it has been discussed on this board over the years. I've tried very hard to see both sides and I always come back to the same questions you put forth in your previous post.
Why would Brushy and so many other people tell so many lies to support his claim unless there was some truth in it? Why would Brushy risk execution to ask for a pardon for crimes he had nothing to do with? How could it be a "coincidence" that someone who wanted to pretend to the legend of Billy Kid would be the same physical size and dimensions, have a face that was a 93% match and wrists that were larger than his hands, and so on, and on? How could Brushy have known about the Sedellios girl Billy dated when he spoke with Josephine Sanchez? Why would Martile Able lie about recognizing Brushy as Billy The Kid when she had refused to recognize others who made the same claim? Why would Pat Garrett tell a friend he never shot the wrong guy by accident? Why would Garrett's daughter insist her father did not kill Billy?
I could go on, but you get the idea. What are the odds of all this being true and Brushy being a fraud? Not very good at all yet still there's no hard proof.
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Post by Billy el nino on Apr 30, 2013 1:03:46 GMT -5
Hi , thanks for the post and i think i will read more on the discussion. After that post I understand now about your response on history is supposed to be based on fact, not fiction.I guess there are some pro's and con's on Brushy bill's case where some evidence consists with his story but some evidence that doesn't consist with his story.You kept saying "proof" and there is hard proof and there is some documentations of it but would you be able to tell me some things that don't consist with Brushy's story and I know there are but I would just like to know your knowledge on this.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 30, 2013 14:52:22 GMT -5
The parts of Brushy's story that bother me the most may well have been examples of exaggeration on his part. Or they may have had to do with failing memory due to advanced age. If you pick apart every little thing he said and insist that any inaccuracy is evidence he was a fraud, then there's no question he was a fraud. But I look at the whole picture of things and I think physical evidence should get more weight than the specific things he said. Consequently, I believe he was the real Billy The Kid. But I'll play devil's advocate here and list a few of the discrepancies he is accused of that bother me the most.
He said during his escape from Ft. Sumner that he was shot in the cheek and the bullet passed through and knocked out a tooth. Where's the scar on his cheek?
His version of that night he escaped Ft. Sumner includes multiple gunshots fired, one that killed his buddy Barlow, three that hit him, plus he was firing away with both pistols. Yet no witness that was there that night ever questioned Garrett's report of just two shots being fired.
He described later adventures that are likely untrue, in fact, almost definitely untrue like racing horses, gunfights and such that would have been big news and yet there is no historic record of these things happening.
Some of his narrative has him in two places at the same time. A question of forgotten dates? Exaggeration? Even if there are straight out lies in his story, does that mean he was not Billy The Kid? No, it does not. But one must question "why?" Was he a pathological liar?
The fact is, the real one and only, "Billy The Kid" was a liar. We know for a fact his real name was not William H. Bonney, yet he insisted on using that name. Even though he had no apparent reason to use an alias. I'm not going to get in to the details right now, but he was apparently guilty of lying on a number of occasions prior to June 1881. Why should we be surprised he continued to tell lies after that. If he really did escape Fort Sumner and go on to live as Brushy Bill Roberts, then lying became a way of life. So I question whether there really was a Billy Barlow, or a trip to Cuba to fight with Roosevelt's Rough Riders, and so on and on, but I still believe Brushy was the real Billy The Kid. The physical evidence and the logic almost demand it to be so.
I hope this hasn't been too confusing to follow. It's kind of difficult to express all this in a short space.
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Post by Billy el nino on May 1, 2013 0:45:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the post and it was not to confusing to follow.What I do know though of Brushy's story is he exaggerated and you said that in your latest post.But he was 90 years old and probably didn't remember some things.I just wanted to know do you know who billy Barlow was?
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Post by Wayne Land on May 1, 2013 9:57:53 GMT -5
I don't know who Billy Barlow was. Some insist he never existed because there is no record of him in any census or anywhere else for that matter. Brushy said he was related to the Clements family and BTW, the well known photo of Brushy at age 14 is said to have been clipped from a group photo of the Clements family. Barlow was also said to be half Mexican. That's about all we have to go on and since the name "Barlow" was likely an alias, I doubt seriously we'll ever know who he was. Unless some miracle happens and they can locate exactly where Billy (Barlow that is) was buried in Fort Sumner, dig up the remains, find some DNA and match it to some known descendant. Not a chance, I'm afraid!
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Post by Billy el nino on May 2, 2013 4:30:10 GMT -5
Do you know a reliable website that has that picture of Brushy at 14 years of age.And also websites or books that have anyhting to say about Brushy Bill and the night Billy the Kid was shot and killed. I got another question to ask which I don't think anyone has asked about to you.Did Brushy ever kill anyone after 1881.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 3, 2013 11:03:55 GMT -5
Go to musicpla9.wix.com/searchingforthekid#!other-photos/csin That's my website. The picture at the bottom of the page is Brushy at 14. The best books I've read are: "Alias Billy The Kid" by C.L. Sonnichsen and William Morrison - This is the book that started it all. I have a copy signed by the authors. "The Real Billy The Kid aka Brushy Bill Roberts" by Brett Hall. - This one is the most complete. Brett dug up some stuff that you won't read about anywhere else. "Beyond The Grave" by W.C. Jameson - Well written and insightful "Billy The Kid, The Lost Interviews" by W.C. Jameson - You gotta read this one. Jameson's second effort on Brushy Bill presents word for word transcriptions of the tapes of Morrison's interviews with Brushy. Available only as an e-book I think. If you believe Brushy's tales of his exploits after 1881, he killed in battle fighting with the Rough Riders and with Poncho Villa.
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Post by Billy el nino on May 3, 2013 18:22:54 GMT -5
Thanks and I will try to find and read some of those books.And have a look at that website of Brushy at 14 years of age.And another thanks of answering my question.
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