|
Post by Wayne Land on Oct 30, 2012 8:08:43 GMT -5
Sorry. I didn't mean a real picture. I was referring to a mental image. I should have specified that.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Nov 6, 2012 18:40:02 GMT -5
nmjames,
Any response to that email you sent? I was very curious to hear more about that. If Josephine has descendants in the area that remember the story it would be very interesting to hear their opinion of it.
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Nov 6, 2012 20:10:58 GMT -5
Wayne,
I did get a response but she had never heard that story. She said she will check with a few relatives soon and get back to me and try to get some answers for me. She said she is busy so it make take a little while.
I went by the Forest Lawn Cemetery and found something I thought was odd. I found Josephine Sanchez's husband near several of the Randolph but not Josephine. Her grave was way up the hill away from her Mother and Father. The other grave that was odd to me was that of Severo Gallegos. It was just about two graves away from the Randolph's and Sanchez.
Josephine was close to a Lovin Sanchez but not right next to him. I thought Gallegos might be kin to the Randolph's or Sanchez so I went to visit with a Mr. Gallegos that I know. I showed him all the names and he didn't know any of them. I did find out that a lady I know in San Patricio was raised by a Tully and she has lived there all her life. I have not had a chance to visit with her however.
I did order the Life Magazine from 1941 and got it Monday.
No one that I talked to had ever heard the story that is in your letter but I will keep checking. It may take a little while until I hear back on my e-mail but she has always been good about getting me info. on the family. I will let you know when I hear back from her.
Josephine didn't pass away until 1996, I would have thought she would have wrote a story on this. The other thing I found strange is there was a Frank Randolf that married a Catarina Brady, father William and mother Bonifacia Brady. They had a son by the name of Willie. Frank is buried next to Josephine's father and Willie is buried on the other side of Frank.
|
|
|
Post by ruidosoman on Nov 8, 2012 21:44:51 GMT -5
I do not believe that Billy The Kid was killed by Garrett as history reflects. I believe that Billy's escape from the Lincoln Jail was planned and that Garrett was involved. I think that Garrett, possibly with the help of Billy, killed someone who was innocent of the "crimes" that Billy was accused of for the purpose of faking Billy's death.
Most of us on this site are amateurs, at least I am, for sure. I lack the investigative knowledge, skills, education and experience to make any determination relative to what really happened with Billy the Kid and that entire situation. I base my statement solely on what other people, real hands on, visit the very site, look at the evidence, talk to people type researchers to come to my conclusion.
Based on what i have read by as many researchers and authors as I have had the energy to look up, dig out and read, Billy the Kid was not killed as reflected in history.
I lean towards Brushy Bill being the real Billy the Kid. He made one statement in "Alias Billy The Kid" as reported by Sonchenson that causes me to have a little doubt. Brushy Bill claims to have been ambidextrous, I do not doubt that. But he said to Sonchenson that he was very good with his right hand, but nobody could beat him if he was using his left.
What does that mean? That he was a good shot or that he was "fast" on the draw? If he meant that he was a better shot with his left than his right, I understand and I agree. I am the same way. But if he was referring to quick on the draw, then Brushy Bill was full of ca-ca and he was not Billy the kid.
Why? We all know that that quick draw stuff was created in Hollywood, not in real life. I know of only one "duel" where two people actually faced off and went at it on the street "Hollywood" style. That involved Wild Bill and it concerned a watch that he lost in a poker game.
Other than this one thing, If I could get clarification to clear that up to my satisfaction, I would believe 100% that Brushy Bill was truly Billy the Kid.
That business about him getting sick and suddenly forgetting people's names and getting his story wrong while at the capital in NM can be explained very easily. The Governor asked Brushy to go into his office to lie down for a while until he felt better, the Governor went with him. The only two people in that office while Bill was "lying down" was him and the Governor. No one else was in there and no one else knows what was discussed during that 20 minute period of time before Bill and the Governor came out to meet the press.
I suspect that the Governor told Bill that even though he could prove that he was truly Billy The Kid, and that he was promised amnesty and never got it, that amnesty did not include the killing of two law enforcement officers and that he would be tried for those two killings and that he would be convicted and possibly executed or at the very least spend the rest of his life in prison.
That did not go the way Brushy wanted it to go. So he made an agreement with the then governor to screw things up in the meeting, which he did. The Governor may have absolved Brushy in private, telling him that he had proved his point and that it will never be forgotten, but if he went through with what he wanted to do ,it was going to end badly for him. Brushy backed off, which in my opinion, was the smart thing to do. I am sure he had talked to God about it and took it as far as he could take it, then backed off. I don't blame him.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Nov 9, 2012 11:34:31 GMT -5
That is an interesting view of what may have happened and is certainly feasible. I was not aware that Mabry spent time alone with Brushy like that. I don't think we can assume much about what they discussed but you know they were talking about his case. Someone on another board many years ago claimed they had seen a letter Brushy wrote after the meeting with Mabry in which he insisted he was claiming to be the "Texas" Billy The Kid and not the "New Mexico" one. I never put much stock in such a letter even existing because there can be absolutely no question who he was claiming to be prior to that meeting. However, your theory might explain such a letter if Mabry had convinced him to back away from his true identity. Very interesting concept!
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Nov 10, 2012 18:08:48 GMT -5
Wayne,
Tell me a little more about the letter from Jill Tully. How did it come about, was it a letter or an affidavit?
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Nov 10, 2012 21:47:28 GMT -5
I really don't know any more about the letter than what I posted earlier. The story is included in Brett Hall's book. I know Brett was acquainted with Judge Hefner of Hico and the letter was sent to Judge Hefner from Jim Tully. By the way the letter reads, it is apparent that Jim Tully got the story from Josephine herself. That's all I know of it's origin.
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Nov 11, 2012 0:43:37 GMT -5
Thanks Wayne,
I read on a Wikipedia site the following: When Morrison took Brushy to visit with Gallegos, Brushy spoke with Severo's Mexican neighbor Josephine Sanchez, in perfect Spanish, Jim Tully signed an affidavit that he could speak Spanish as well as a native.
I may be wrong but I would think if Jim Tully signed an affidavit that Brushy could speak perfect Spanish, he would need to hear it himself. It also states on the Wikipedia site the same thing that I have been told by two or three people that saw Brushy, that he couldn't speak Spanish.
I'm also trying to find out if Josephine lived by Gallegos in 1950 when Morrison and Brushy visited him. Do you know? One other thing that I see is the only Sedillos girl that I find that father was Jose and mother Maria, was born in 1874. She would have been a little young to have been Billy's girl friend. There is a Maria Sedillos born in 1864 but none of the other names match up.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Nov 11, 2012 13:25:23 GMT -5
In the 1940 census Severo is at lot number 40 and Josephine is at number 33. Those numbers are a record of the "order of visitation" and the census worker probably walked down one side of the street and came back up the other. Or sometimes they skip a house because no one is home and then return to it later. But number 33 and 40 are certainly close enough to indicate they could have been considered neighbors. Possibly they were across the street from each other.
There are others that stated Brushy spoke perfect spanish. Brushy spoke to Gallegos in Spanish, Martile Able said he spoke Spanish and I pretty sure there were others. But let's also consider the fact that Spanish was Billy The Kid's second language and we don't really know how fluent he was. By that I mean there's "fluent" and then there's truly fluent as in "like a native". I guess I'm saying that I doubt his Spanish skills were a total complete mastery of the language and if Brushy didn't use the Spanish much after say 1900 or so, then he might well have forgotten some of what he knew or shall we say, "gotten rusty". This could account for conflicting opinions from those who tried to speak Spanish to him in the late 1940's. I am strongly of the opinion that some folks expect too much from a 90 year old man who's memory comes and goes. I have an 85 year old mother-in-law right now who speaks sensibly for a few minutes at a time and then drifts into non-sensical statements the next few minutes. We don't know how much of that kind of thing Brushy suffered from but Morrison does indicate in his book that it was an issue. I guess I'm saying that many who study Brushy's statements try to compare the 90 year old man to the 21 year old man and if the two are not a perfect match in everything including language skills, writing skills, facial appearance, etc. that they can't be the same person. This is not, in my opinion, the way to be objective about it. Let me specify I'm speaking in general here and not accusing any particular person of not being objective, least of all not you James. You've demonstrated a unique desire to get at the truth through facts. I wish more people would do that.
Speaking of facts, I have to go back and read your previous posts again because I don't remember right now how you determined the "Sedillos girl" had a father named Jose and mother Maria.
I also need to see what I can find about Jim Tully signing an affidavit. I don't recall that but I'll look for it.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion.
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Nov 12, 2012 0:16:20 GMT -5
Wayne,
Every one that knew Billy talked about him speaking fluent spanish "like a native." That was one of the many reasons they liked him so much.
As to your statement Speaking of facts you ask how I determined the "Sedillos girl" had a father named Jose and mother Maria.
On you post of Oct. 23, 2012 11:49 PM, you talked about the letter from Jim Tully. In the letter it stated that Billy had a sweetheart in San Patricio and Brushy stated it was "A Sedillios girl across the river." I ask if you knew her name but I don't remember if you found her name. I have all kinds of books on the area with family names as well as books on the LCW. I had heard the name Sedillio but not as a girlfriend. I looked in a few books and found the name Jose Miguel Sedillos in Pat Garrett's book and also in George Coe's book. It has to do with Jose being a good friend of Billy the Kids and letting him know that Jesse Evans was in the area. (I won't go into the story but it had nothing to do with Billy's girlfriend.) I looked through a few of the family history books as well as a few sites that I use. I didn't really find anything on him but on a Sedillo Family Tree site, I found Jose Miguel Sedillos and the stories that are in Pat Garrett's and George Coe's books. They also have a picture of Jose M. Sedillos and below the picture it has Life Magazine, Aug. 4, 1941. You can click on the site and it brings up the magazine with pictures around Lincoln and San Patricio in 1941. One of the pictures is of a man by the name of Sixto Sedillos. Above him in his home is a picture of Jose Miguel Sedillos and Sixto states that Billy the Kid was in love with his sister, (no name) but they wouldn't let her and Billy get married. On the Sedillos Family Tree site, It list Jose Miguel Sedillos, wife Maria Chaves Garcia and their children. There is a Sisto Garcia Sedillos born in 1867 but when doing Census search, I find him born in 1870 and 1872. The first girl that I find is a Maria Sedillo born in 1874. I also find her on Census as 1874.
So I guess because I did not have any full Sedillos names and found Jose Miguel Sedillos in two different books and the same info. on a Family Tree site, then the 1941 Life Magazine, I feel they are the Sedillos that we are looking for. If not, give me their names and I will start researching them. I hope this helps.
I did hear back from my contact this moring. She has been busy but did visit with a aunt. She did not remember Josephine, Eddie or the story. She is going to check with other family members when she gets time. I sent her the material that I feel showes they are kin through W. Gill. I still need to visit with another lady that I know in San Patricio and will keep you posted.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Nov 13, 2012 16:06:19 GMT -5
The 1880 Federal census shows the following family living in Lincoln. Maria is age 16 at the time. Her siblings are all boys. The only problems with this being the girl Billy was dating is that she lives in Lincoln, not San Patricio. Of course the family might have moved about that time.
Jose Sedillos 60 Maria Sedillos 45 Juan Sedillos 28 Calistro Sedillos 21 Nevis Sedillos 19 Maria Sedillos 16 Caustilo Sedillos 15
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Nov 13, 2012 20:31:24 GMT -5
James, I don't know if the Maria Sedillos age 16 in 1880 is the same one you found born in 1874 but if it is, the 1880 census says she was born in 1864, not 1874.
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Nov 13, 2012 20:53:33 GMT -5
Wayne,
It's not the same Sedillos family. The one you are showing does not fit the Sedillos family in the Life Magazine.
This is what I find,
Jose Miguel Sedillos 1842. Maria Chaves Garcis Children Martin Garcia Sedillos -1864 Rafail Garcia Sedillos - 1866 Sisto Garcia Sedillos - 1867 (1868 - 1872) Daniel Sedillo - 1873 Maria Sedillo - 1874 Rufino Sedillo - 1876
On the Sedillo Family Tree, the have the stories in the Garrett and Coe Books. That is how I found the Life article.
Sisto is the man in the Life Magazine but they spell his name as Sixto. I will try to take a good picture of the one in the Life Magazine and send it to you.
Back to Josephine Sanchez. The question I had for you is where was Josephine living in 1950. You gave me the 1940 census. Here is the reason I ask you this question.
In the 1940 Census, Josephine age 20 and Eddie age 19 are living as you state in White Mountain, Lincoln, New Mexico. In Morrison's book they have Brushy and Morrison visiting Severo Gallegos in 1950. That's ten (10) years. I found on Eddie's grave that he was in WW-II. So my thinking is that he was in between 1941 and 1945. Did Josephine say in the same house and what happen to them after he went into the Army? If they were like a lot of young people, I feel they moved around and didn't own the house. I have a friend that works in the records office and I will try to find out if Josephine was still living near Gallegos in 1950.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Nov 13, 2012 23:24:50 GMT -5
I have searched and searched and I don't find any Jose Miguel Sedillos on ancestry.com. Did you find him in a census? What year and where did he live?
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Nov 14, 2012 0:25:07 GMT -5
Wayne,
On your computer in your search, type in Jose Miguel Sedillos San Patricio NM. It should take you to different sites. Look for one that has Jose Miguel Sedillos 1842 -1898. or Johnsedillos.
Jose Miguel Sedillo married Maria Ynes Garcia on April 8, 1860 in Santa Genevieves Las Cruces, NM.
I find Maria Sedillo baptism 31 May 1874, Father Jose Miguel Sedillo, Mother Maria Inex Garcia, Santa Rita, Carrizozo, Lincoln, New Mexico (Note: One the family site they also have this info. but state they were living in San Patricio.)
Sixto Sedillo, Married Margarita Olguin 28 July 1892 Santa Rita, Carrizozo, Lincoln New Mexico Father Jose Miguel Sedillo, Mother Maria Ynes Garcia. brides father Ramon Olguin, mother Laurenza Sedillo?
Rafael Sedillo Married Reynalda Montoya 28 Jan 1893 Santa Rita, Carrizozo, Lincoln New Mexico. Father, Jose Miguel Sedillo, Mother Maria Ynes Garcia. brides father Juan Montoya mother Perfedia Aragun.
I thought I found them on a census together but I didn't find it. I will look again.
|
|