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Post by MissyS on Mar 19, 2014 17:32:55 GMT -5
Hello All, In the book "They Knew Billy The Kid Interviews with old time Mexicans" on page 64 -65 there is an interview with an Apolonio Sedillo. Anyway this name may be a name to research?
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Post by marchus on Mar 24, 2014 17:10:24 GMT -5
MissyS is that book worth getting? I read mixed reviews on it-It sounds interesting. I like the books written by people who truly knew Billy.
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Post by MissyS on Mar 24, 2014 18:04:59 GMT -5
MissyS is that book worth getting? I read mixed reviews on it-It sounds interesting. I like the books written by people who truly knew Billy. It is a good book because it was written from interviews from the many people that knew Billy back in the day these interviews were done before alot of those old timers died, alot of the people's eyewitness accounts differ however and you can get a picture of what Billy was like, how he was loved, and respected. its not a big book or thick book, but alot of the interviews are only a few paragraghs to a page long, so theres many of them that were interviewed, it's interesting because one person said Billy's mother came to his funeral, and that she made it in time after traveling from Silver City? , I had to shake my head at this one, because Billy's mother was supposed to been dead, what mother could it have been? Ma Jones perhaps?, there are other accounts in that book that say Billy's mother was alive long after Billy left home, I assume these were confused old timers on up in age and their memory wasnt so sharp, or maybe theyre correct, and the date on Billy's mothers gravestone is incorrect? interesting?
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Post by scoot on Feb 21, 2015 23:14:09 GMT -5
Why don't we do a DNA on all the three. Brushy, BTK and the mother, and the allegded body at the Fort Sumner grave?
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Post by in2btk2 on Jul 5, 2015 15:01:56 GMT -5
With all that I have read I lean towards the fact that Garrett shot the wrong man due to rushed judgement knowing that he could not outduel Billy The Kid. Over the years the truth tends to come out due to guilty conciences, and this case to me is no different. Garrett, Poe and Mckinney have to many differences in their stories of what happened the night the Kid was apparantely brought down. Then as the years went on the guilt that the wrong man met his death started to take it's toll on these lawmen. Sometimes silence speaks louder than words. Pete Maxwell never, on or off the record, spoke about the incident. On the other hand Paulita Maxwell couldn't stop refuting a relationship with Henry McCarty. The Maxwell's were in on it, too.
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Post by in2btk2 on Jul 5, 2015 16:07:13 GMT -5
I had read Poe's account of what happened that night several times but didn't have a copy of it on hand, and thinking his book would provide more context I just this morning purchased it in eBook form and read the entire book (not very long). I would encourage anyone who hasn't read it to do so but again I'm left with several nagging questions about his account and how it conflicts with that of others including Garrett himself. 1) Poe doesn't mention them overhearing the Kid in the Orchard as Garrett says they did and I find it difficult to believe he wouldn't think that was an important part of the story. I've always suspected Garrett made that up to lend credence to his claim the victim was indeed William H. Bonney. 2) Poe says soon after the shooting the body was given to some women who carried it to the carpenter shop and laid it out on a bench for a wake. He says that he, Garrett and McKinney then stayed in Maxwell's house the rest of the night for fear of retribution from Billy's friends. But Judge Seguro's report says he arrived, appointed a jury and found the body in a room in Maxwell's house. He didn't say it was in the carpenter's shop. I'm not saying Seguro lied. Rather I suspect the coroner's report was a fake and because Seguro put nothing in his own records about having even been involved, I question whether he even went to Fort Sumner at all. 3) Jesus Silva said he and Deluvina went in right after the shooting and determined the body was Billy's. Poe says "upon examining the body, 'we' found it to be that of Billy The Kid". He says nothing about Silva or Deluvina going in first. Let me clarify that I don't necessarily think Poe lied about anything he said in his book. But his statements, if all true, help to show that others lied about the events of that evening. That supports the concept there was a cover up by Garrett and an attempt to protect Billy's escape by his friends. Additionally, there is nothing in Poe's book that convinces me he wasn't correct in his initial assumption that the fellow who was killed that night was not Billy. That doesn't necessarily mean "he" participated in the cover up. It could simply mean he was deceived by Garrett and never knew it. I don't believe Jesus Silva's story. I don't think he or Deluvina were in the room right afterwards as he claimed. I agree with your logic, Wayne, and the sequence of events. We cannot rule out everyone as a liar. That's ridiculous. Everyone has a point of view, and some a hidden agenda as well. John W. Poe in my opinion lends more weight to his version of events. He was a detective working to stop the rampant cattle rustling in the area. But more to the point, Governor Lew Wallace sent in a former outlaw, Pat Garrett, to arrest an outlaw. Wallace needed some assurance that Poe could be trusted to finish the job if Garrett couldn't or wouldn't deliver. Poe was indeed a rarity in Lincoln County - an honest man without any preconceived agenda. After several months on the trail, Garrett was about to give up the chase. Remember, it was Poe who insisted they check out the rumors of McCarty's link to Fort Sumner. Garrett had already killed Charlie Bowdre and Tom. O. Folliard believing they were Henry McCarty. In my opinion, it was not past Garrett to resort to any underhanded attempt to kill Billy the Kid. Garrett had political aspirations and shooting the wrong man was not going to get in his way. No official Death Certificate issued? No photographic proof William H Bonney was killed? The first Coroners Jury report gets "lost"? Pete Maxwell never utters a word about the incident to his dying day and it all happened at his ranch house? Garrett gets Upson to write a book full of lies and half-truths which doesn't stand the test of time? Classic it is not. History is often written by the victorious. If only we had a serious look at this through Hispanic eyes. Only then might we avoid the corruption that plagues the "official" historians view of things. As a screenwriter, this is what I am planning on following through. Any assistance in introductions to contact the most reliable sources would be most appreciated. Thank you for offering this opportunity for us all to speak our collective minds, whilst trying to solve the enigma that is William Henry McCarty.
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Post by Richard Alexander on Oct 11, 2015 18:35:31 GMT -5
The Sedillo girl was Angelita born in 1865. Died Roswell, NM 1940. Her parents were Jose Miguel and Maria Garcia Sedillo. Angelita's brother Sixto born 1868 and died Weld County, CO 1957. The family story is that Jose was friends with Billy who took an interest in the daughter. Sixto was the lookout when Angelita and Billy met . Jose disapproved and married Angelita off to an old man. Hope this helps.
Richard Alexander, Sedillo descendant Parker, CO Reavette@aol.com
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 12, 2015 14:19:24 GMT -5
Richard,
That is tremendous. As you probably read above, no one had found Jose's daughter other than the one born in 1874 (who was too young to have dated Billy). But Angelita, born in 1865 would not have been too young. This shows that Jim Tully's story about Brushy's meeting with Josephine Sanchez is a plausible story. I think it lends tremendous credibility to Brushy's claim of being Billy The Kid. Because there is no way he could have known about Billy and Angelita unless he was there.
Of course it still isn't hard proof because the naysayers will still insist the meeting with Josephine never happened or if it did, the conversation reported by Tully never happened. I give it credibility because I have no reason to call Tully or Josephine a liar.
I have a question though if you don't mind. Is there documentation regarding Angelita and her birthdate? Possibly in a census, etc.? I never found her anywhere. Thanks so much for sharing.
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Post by Don on Oct 19, 2015 7:58:48 GMT -5
Hi. This is very much off of what is currently being talked about now, but my feelings on if Billy was killed by Pat Garrett. First off I'm no authority on this at all and haven't read or seen all the material out there but these are my thought and opinions. I've read that when Billy was supposedly killed that his body was on a bench for a night or day and that Pat Garrett seemed to not do an official report. I understand there may not have been a photographer, but there should be more info on that with witnesses in a more in depth and official way. I've looked into what happened To Jesse James and Ok Corral incident and both seemed to have been worked way better with photos and such. Seems to me like Garrett dropped the ball or wanted to cover something up. So that's one way I would lean toward Billy not being killed that night. The next couple things are just thoughts really about how it went down and people around there in that time. I may be very wrong but it seems to me that after what happened, whatever that was, it kinda fizzled out or went quiet afterwards. I really don't see many stories or testimony from people there to make it feel conclusive either way. It seemed it kinda just ended and people were like "yes he die, that's billy". Now, if Billy lived I can totally see people being hush about it to protect him and not make a big deal out of it. And vice versa, if he was killed that night, would it just fizzled out so to speak? My feelings are that for that time period and now, people wouldn't. If he's really dead and they all know it, they don't have to protect him so there would be at least one person who would be vocal about it. If he was as friendly and liked, like lots of info about him would have is belive, then people would be very upset, heartbroke and angry. It would not have been quiet. Even in that day and age, there could have possibly been some sort of vigilante justice from his close friends who were still alive. Riots or protesting or the like. Maybe there was and I didn't read it but with all things considered, it feels to me like he didn't die on that night.
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Post by Don on Oct 19, 2015 9:24:45 GMT -5
Another thought I would like to add. It's my opinion from lots of different situations of wanted fugitives and the law, of those old days and the wild west eapecially, that law officials or the sheriff's seemed to want to be known for getting their man. Maybe for public appeal, bragging rights or to be in a limelight. So many cases that are similar, the sheriff will always show the proof of the wanted criminal and always seems to make a big public display of it. Pat Garrett didn't have photos taken, maybe because the nearest photographer was a couple days away. Okay, your think he would at least try to get the body to some medical facility to try and preserve it somewhat until he can get photos made. This was obviously a big deal thing being ordered I think from the governor, so you'd think Pat would've done everything he could to show proof that he got his man. As I mentioned earlier, that seems real suspicious and seems he's was trying to hide his mistake. And a while later he wrote the book stating he killed Billy, to try and make it be really known. If he really killed Billy, whom he did know fairly well I think, would he have needed to write a book stating he did? Not at all! He wouldn't have to because he would've had lots of proof and a body, and it would have been VERY public!! I'm sure lots of other people have thought these things too, but it does make you wonder.
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Post by clydec on Dec 1, 2015 21:29:03 GMT -5
Who was Henry Carter? I have heard of Brushy Bill of course and to some extent John Miller, but this Henry Carter is a new one for me!
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Post by Nik Oak on May 6, 2016 12:05:59 GMT -5
What might Billy's mental state have been after his escape from lincoln jail? Would he have suffered post traumatic stress, and what effect might it have had on him?
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Post by MissyS on May 19, 2016 2:39:31 GMT -5
Good Question, I kinda believe Billy's state of mind may have been traumatized before he arrived to the Lincoln Jail, I believe this because after seeing two of his close friends shot, and Billy had to ride in a wagon from Stinking Springs to Fort Sumner alongside his friend Bowdre's body in the wagon, and then he was taken to Santa Fe and was jailed there, he supposedly tried to dig his way out along with his cell mates I believe one may have been Rudabaugh, and or Wilson, they were caught by the jailer before the hole they dug was big enough and what happened afterwards is speculation but supposedly Billy was taken to solitary confinement and left in the dark, according to The New Mexican article in 1881 said "The Kid was held in a stone cell to which even the light of day is denied admittance." How long he was held there I don't know? but after he was sentenced to hang he was taken to the Lincoln Jail where he was verbally abused by his guard that likely added to the trauma he was already suffering, he told a friend that Ollinger worked him up untill he could hardly contain himself, I cant imagine how difficult that must have been?
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 16, 2016 15:40:07 GMT -5
I'm sure he was to a certain point, but he was a cool cucumber. The dark cell would have been worst of all, 2nd the taunting, but the anger he had toward his guard would have been just that and the PTSD would have set in after the fact when he had to live with it but he never had to live with that pain because he let it all go when he shot Bob, and both the historically accepted Kid and Brushy said it was the happiest moment of their life. I'd have to dig if you want to me find where he supposedly mentioned it after the shooting. And both also expressed regret at having to kill Belle, and both were probably one and the same person. uh, duh.
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Post by mckinley412 on May 27, 2017 13:58:29 GMT -5
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