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Post by Wayne Land on May 27, 2017 19:19:20 GMT -5
And so it goes TTT. I disagree with your assessment. You disagree with mine.
You didn't answer my question. Do you believe it has been "proven" beyond "any doubt" that Brushy Bill Roberts was "not" Billy The Kid?
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Post by mckinley412 on May 27, 2017 20:33:12 GMT -5
Guys, guys, ...this isn't the casting call for Grumpy Old Men 3. How about my comment on who might be the Mexican buried instead of Billy. Could be Maxwell's cook, Deluvina's son, Celsa's son who isn't in the census later says he remembers Billy getting the knife, or there is this guy living in the same house where Brushy said he was living at a year later. Iaisoeo Efon who does not show up in any other censuses.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 27, 2017 20:53:51 GMT -5
Thain, Thain, An even more important question, “Was there a Billy Barlow?” In 1949, Brushy Bill said he was Billy the Kid, and that Pat Garrett killed Billy Barlow. That was Brushy Bill’s explanation of how he escaped death in 1881.
In 1948. Brushy Bill’s good friend, J. Frank Dalton declared he was the real Jesse Woodson James, and that Charlie Bigelow was shot by Bob Ford and Charlie was buried in his (Jesse’s) casket. That was Dalton’s explanation of how he escaped death in 1882.
No record has been found that proves Charlie Bigelow or Billy Barlow ever existed.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 27, 2017 20:57:36 GMT -5
"You didn't answer my question. Do you believe it has been "proven" beyond "any doubt" that Brushy Bill Roberts was "not" Billy The Kid?"
I believe it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Brushy Bill Roberts was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, just as his WWI draft registration card, and his family members have stated.
Skeptics will cling to their belief that Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver Pleasant Roberts were different men. So be it.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 28, 2017 0:31:40 GMT -5
What is reasonable is a matter of opinion. I respect yours. But it is important to accept that even in your estimation there is room for "unreasonable" doubt which others may deem "reasonable." That said, I don't know if you saw Thain's last post (deleted) but I do think he makes a valid point. On this thread, let's try to get back to discussing new information about the identity of Billy Barlow or the person that might have been buried in Billy The Kid's place.
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Post by MissyS on May 28, 2017 0:53:11 GMT -5
I have a theory about Barlow, I was wondering if Brushy could have mistaken the names of Clements with Clantons? , names are similar kinda, the reason Im wondering is because there is a Barlow associated with the Clantons, when I read about the Clantons a Barlow comes up, just another avenue to consider?
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Post by MissyS on May 29, 2017 7:07:32 GMT -5
Who was Billy Barlow? In 1880 census there is 20 year old Iaisoeo Efon living with Celsa Gutierrez and her "husband" aka Pat's brother-in-law. His occupation is sheepherder. Seems like I heard a sheepherder was buried instead but maybe not. Pete had a lot of sheepherders I guess but Brushy claimed he himself had been staying at Celsa 's so could this be his partner? truewestmagazine.com/caught-with-his-pants-down/. You will also find this article interesting. Another version if what happened. Thain, that is interesting about Billy being in the building, and Paulita's room being close to Pete's, it makes sense if that's the way it happened for them to protect her and make up a different version, but it also don't make sense that Garrett would have his two deputy's stay outside on the porch if Billy was inside the building? The 20 yr old Iasoeo could have been Barlow? a person noted in a census in the household that Billy/Brushy stayed makes you wonder? also Happy Memorial Day
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 30, 2017 11:46:17 GMT -5
Brushy Bill, in his quest for fame Created Billy Barlow, the name Was the Kid shot No he was not That was Brushy Bill’s claim
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Post by SBeck on Jun 19, 2018 5:16:07 GMT -5
Going through the whole thread's back and forth: there may be a very small window of opportunity where a surviving Billy the Kid could've inserted himself into the Roberts family by taking the place of another man who conveniently disappeared forever without a trace and never came back. But please, there's a very useful instrument called Occam's Razor ☺ Even if the Kid had survived that fateful night in Fort Sumner - something I won't go into, although I think personally that it is unlikely - I think it's far more realistic that he would've simply created a new identity for himself instead of inserting himself somehow into an existing and documented family. I think that this idea by itself is highly improbable. There's also something about Brushy Bill's personality, specifically his penchant for telling tall tales, which doesn't really fit with what we believe to know about the Kid's personality. He was fiercely proud and loyal, but never given to aggrandizing himself and embellishing his deeds. Others have done that for him before and after his death. But liking to tell tall tales does fit very well with the idea of an old man who is inspired by the example of another old pal and decides to make the rest of his life more interesting by claiming to be a famous outlaw. Going again by Occam's Razor this seems to be the most likely explanation for Brushy's surprising claim. As to proving Brushy wrong once and for all - as I have said in another thread, I believe that this proof is possible by re-examining the pictorial evidence with modern forensic tools. There's only one by now dated study which attests a strong similarity between the famous picture of the Kid and Brushy. That isn't good enough. And an existing similarity doesn't mean anyway that Brushy must be the Kid. But it could very well have triggered the idea for his surprising claim, if he met people who had known the Kid, who might've pointed it out to him. This might've sparked Brushy's interest in the Kid's life story. The last possibility is of course just my speculation.
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Post by MissyS on Jun 24, 2018 18:49:16 GMT -5
There was an interesting incident written in the book "Wilson and the Kid" by Donald R. Lavash, it was about a special agent named Azariah F. Wild that was assigned to investigate the counterfeiting ring in New Mexico, and Billy Bonney's gang of Rustlers was greatly suspected. On Oct.10,1880 a manager of a ranch near White Oaks named Edgar Walz told Wild that he had a man in his employ that knew Billy's gang, he also knew their hideouts, and where the counterfeiting money was being made, and if he (Walz) is paid $1000 he'll bring in the Rustlers, and Wild agreed. The name of the informant was James DeVours. There was a date set for James DeVours to meet with the agent, but before the meeting took place DeVours mysteriously disappeared according to the book, however other sources say James DeVours fled the area. Wild wrote a letter to his superior James Brooks telling him about the developments with Walz and about the informant DeVours. On Oct. 18, 1880 near Fort Sumner, the mail stage is robbed by the Rustlers and Wild's letter to Brooks was among the mail stolen. So Billy's gang could have found out about James DeVours willingness to give information about them from the stolen letter they recovered? I'm wondering if James DeVours could have changed his name to Billy Barlow? Copied from an earlier post about the article in the El Paso Times June 30th, 1938 pg. 4, it's about a lady named Mrs. L. A. Cardwell of Las Cruces, she told about meeting a prospector named Manuel Taylor that stopped at her camp, he told her the man killed at Maxwell's was a young cattle detective that came in from the east and expected to make some easy money capturing cattle rustlers and got hit by mistake. James DeVours wasn't a cattle detective but he was an informer working with one, and he was helping to catch men that were involved with counterfeiting that happen to be cattle rustlers.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 4, 2018 17:27:32 GMT -5
A few posts up this was mentioned. That was something I found and probably posted a couple places and it has already been debunked. I said this Iasoeo person does not show up on anymore records so he could've possibly been the person who was killed instead of Billy. The problem was that I only looked at the modern day typed record and not the original record which I always do now. So often the typed one does not match the original, they get the names wrong, the sex wrong, etc. The person's name was not even close to Iasoeo and someone in this group found the real person mentioned in later records. I didn't double check the group member's findings that the person does show up later but I did see for myself that the name was incorrect and I assume he shows up later,.... but maybe he doesn't....
Here we can plainly see that William Roberts was summoned to court for Counterfeiting. Although they may have meant to write William Robert (pronounced Ro-bare, I guess, Idk.) William Robert, Sallie Chisum's husband was related to the John Chisum that is mentioned by either blood or marriage or both. Or maybe they were summoning William H. Roberts alias Billy the Kid...
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Post by MissyS on Jul 11, 2018 12:59:09 GMT -5
Mckinley412, It was Sallie Chisum's husband William Robert that was summoned to court. On September 1,1880 Billy Wilson supposedly passed a $100.00 counterfeit bank note to William Robert in Anton Chico. A telegram was sent to Olinger stating that William Robert, John Chisum and Beaver Smith should be summoned to appear in court as witnesses against Billy Wilson.
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Post by Hunter on Jul 14, 2018 20:04:43 GMT -5
Nik, Everything you say makes sense. But I think the reason Barlow spoke to the deputies in Spanish was because that was his native language. Maybe he knew a little English and maybe the claims that he spoke to Maxwell in English are correct. But Barlow was either Spanish or half Spanish. The newspaper reported he had dark skin and a mustache. I would describe my feelings about Brushy being the real Billy The Kid as "quite certain" but with some lingering doubt and questions. I would describe my opinion regarding Billy's alleged death at the hands of Garrett as "absolutely not". Didn't happen. Garrett shot the wrong man that night. Was his name Billy Barlow? I can't be absolutely certain about that but I feel absolutely certain Billy the Kid was not killed that night at Maxwell's. William (Billy) Barlow - I found a 1870 Texas Census with William Barlow, born about 1857 - 1858 (Near the age of William H. Bonney / Bonny) born in Virginia, who was a Mulatto. (?) He was around 12 years old during this census taken in 1870, Bell County, Texas. It looks like he might be living with his mother, Matilda Barlow and a younger brother, John, in a household of the E S Stevens family in Bell County, Texas. (north of Austin) Matilda may have been a domestic servant. (It's a little hard to read original document) I just checked Matilda Barlow and she is listed as being black. William (Billy) Barlow - Listed in the Texas 1870 Census living in Fort Concho Texas. (North East of Fort Stockton in what is now San Angelo) He is listed under the command of Joseph Rendlebrook, who was in the Civil War. William Barlow is listed as being born in Canada in about 1847 - 1848, so he is about ten years older then William H. Bonney / Bonny. I could not find William Barlow listed in the 1880 Texas Census on Family Search.
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Post by leeb on Nov 2, 2018 13:18:14 GMT -5
Billy Barlow is just a fictional character?
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Post by sushiadam on Nov 2, 2018 23:12:40 GMT -5
I've read that "Billy Barlow" was the 19th century's "John Doe". Just a general name that somebody who didn't want their identity known would use.
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