|
Post by mckinley412 on May 21, 2017 15:24:17 GMT -5
Is it possible that someone came down from the Indian Territory to pick up young William Henry Roberts? Could the author have confused Mary Dunn's half sister Catherine with Catherine Bonney? I think it is possible because Brushy didn't refer to Catherine Antrim as Bonney, the author did that, so perhaps they got other last names wrong. In the first 1865 cenus we see Caroline is 15yrs old and the Dunn family has moved from Arkansas up to Kansas which is still kind of Indian Territory ( in 1854, the Chippewa -Swan Creek and Black River bands- inhabited 8,320 acres (33.7 km2) in Franklin County, but in 1859 the tract was transferred to individual Chippewa families.-wikipedia) and whose to say Catherine Dunn didn't move out by there. In the second cenus 15 years earlier in 1850 Caroline is 0 years old and Mary is 13, another 9 years and Mary'll be old enough to give birth to Billy the Kid! Does she have a half sister named Catherine?--In the third census we see a Catherine Dunn living practically next door with a different family. Why? I don't know. But somewhere between 1850 and 1865 these two babes went somewhere and did their own thing. Catherine Antrim twas supposedly born in 1829 and not 1837 so perhaps those two Catherine's are not the same yet they didn't get many facts straight back then, now did they?. Eva T which is mispelled as Every F on the 1850 census was allegedly previously married to a Samuel Bolinger, spelled Eva Telitha Counts and other ways she was listed as his spouse and born in 1813. Did she have other children with Samuel Bolinger, I don't know. Maybe that's where Catherine McCarty came from. But I do believe there is more to this story than we know. The tape of Brushy speaking sounds more like a 90 yr old man than it does a 70 yr old man so that is one important record to me. I'm pretty positive he's the Oliver in the 1910 census and the one that married Mollie, I just don't think he's the Oliver from the 1880 and 1900 census. You ask what records show that he was born in 1859? I doubt he knew his birthdate. Are there any records that Billy the Kid was born in 1859? Could it be this is one more thing these two guys have in common? Could it be . . . they are not two different guys . . . but rather . . . the same guy??? "JUST WHAT HE DID AFTER 1881, AND WHEN AND WHERE HE DID IT, IS NOT TOO EASY TO MAKE OUT, IN SPITE OF THE COPIOUS NOTES AND BITS OF NARRATIVE HE LEFT BEHIND" -- SONNICHSEN/MORRISON, Alias Billy the Kid
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 21, 2017 16:04:39 GMT -5
“Just food for thought, but, why must we assume that Brushy even "knew" his exact birth date and year?” Brushy Bill told Morrison he was born at the Buffalo Gap on December 31, 1859, the last hour of the last day of the year. Can’t be more specific than that.
” Why would he mislead unless he had something to hide and thought it would help?” Just food for thought. J. Frank Dalton, probably born about 1848, and Brushy Bill, both lived in Gregg County, Texas, some of the years between 1930 and 1940.. They were both too old to work. They were photographed as "gunslingers" on the ranch of DeWitt Travis, who paid Brushy Bill’s travel expenses when he went to New York to support Dalton’s claim that he was Jesse James. (See The Lawton Constitution newspaper, issue of Wednesday, May 19, 1948). Brushy Bill decided to become Billy the Kid after he retired. He knew he was not old enough. Beginning about 1940, his reported birth year jumps backward from about 1878 to about 1868. Morrison contacted Brushy Bill in 1949. Still not old enough, so he told Morrison he was born in 1859.
All that is just more evidence that Brushy Bill and J. Frank Dalton were impostors.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 24, 2017 14:18:20 GMT -5
Thain, You are correct. There is no confirmed record of the birth year of Billy the Kid. The exact birth date of Catherine McCarty Antrim is also unknown. The name of his father is unknown. The parents of Oliver Pleasant Roberts were Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson. There is no evidence that the couple that Brushy Bill Roberts identified as his parents, J. H. Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn, ever existed.
William Morrison interviewed Brushy Bill, and C. L. Sonnichsen wrote “Alias Billy the Kid”. Chapter 1 includes the paragraph, “Thus begins Brushy Bill Roberts’ account of his own life, as set down in a series of paper-covered notebooks and corrected not long before his death.” That implies information in “Alias Billy the Kid” came from Brushy Bill and was not altered by Morrison or Sonnichsen.
According to Morrison, Brushy Bill said he was born 31 December 1859 near Buffalo Gap (a low point in the Callahan Divide which separates the Brazos and Colorado River watersheds). He said his parents were J. H. “Wild Henry” Roberts and Mary Adelaide Dunn. No records have been found that support any of this information. Brushy Bill said that his step-aunt, Catherine Bonney, came from the Indian Territory and took him away with her after his mother died about 1862, No records have been found that support any of this information.
” Is it possible that someone came down from the Indian Territory to pick up young William Henry Roberts? Could the author have confused Mary Dunn's half sister Catherine with Catherine Bonney? I think it is possible because Brushy didn't refer to Catherine Antrim as Bonney, the author did that, so perhaps they got other last names wrong.” It is possible that someone could have come down from the Indian Territory. It is an assumption, and not a fact, that William Henry Roberts was born near Buffalo Gap. That area was beyond the frontier in 1859 and not settled until about 1865. It is an assumption, not a fact, that Mary Dunn had a half-sister. There is no record that Mary Dunn, wife of J. H. Roberts and presumed mother of William Henry Roberts, ever existed.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 24, 2017 14:21:26 GMT -5
Thain, Your research of Caroline Dunn is accurate. The genealogy chart of William Henry Roberts in “The Return of the Outlaw, Billy the Kid”, shows that the mother of Martha Vada Roberts Heath was Caroline Dunn, and that her father was William Dunn. That is wrong. Caroline’s father was Francis Dunn. There are other mistakes in the published chart. 1850 census, Franklin Co, AR. Caroline Dunn, daughter of Francis and E. F. Dunn, was born about October 1850. 1860 census, Sebastian Co. AR. Caroline Dunn, age 10, is in the household of Francis and Philitia Dunn. 1865 Kansas State Census, Franklin County. Caroline Dunn, age 15, is in the household of Francis and Eva T. Dunn. 1870 census, Sebastian Co, AR. Carolina Dunn, age 18, is in the household of Francis and Eva W. Dunn. Caroline married Henry Oliver Roberts about 1871. Samantha Belle Roberts, Caroline’s first child, was born 25 October 1872. Martha Vada Roberts, Caroline’s second child, was born 3 September 1874. Caroline Dunn Roberts died in 1875, and is buried in Mount Harmony Cemetery, Sebastian County, AR.
There are family trees that indicate Francis Dunn married 3 times. Mary “Polly” Lynch (1796 – 1821), 2 or 3 children Elizabeth Weaver (1798 – ca 1849), about 9 children Eva Telitha Counts Bolinger (ca 1813 – 1876), 1 child with Francis Dunn; about 5 with Samuel Bolinger, her first husband
Caroline Dunn had an older half-sister, Mary Dunn, born 2 May 1837.
Mary Dunn, age 16, married Joseph Lane 19 June 1863 in Franklin County, Arkansas. He was killed in the Battle of Springfield 8 January 1863. She married 2nd, Franklin Reed 4 October 1868 in Franklin County. 1870 Franklin Co census, Mary Reed, age 32, and Franklin Reed, age 36, have a household of 5 children; 3 children from his prior marriage, and 2 children from her marriage to Joseph Lane. Mary died 29 Sep 1898. FAG #51569339
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 24, 2017 16:39:57 GMT -5
“I'm pretty positive he's the Oliver in the 1910 census and the one that married Mollie, I just don't think he's the Oliver from the 1880 and 1900 census.”
Thain, Oliver Roberts, age 1, is in the household of his parents, Henry and Elizabeth Roberts. Also in the household is Martha Roberts, age 6, who married Dudley Heath about 1890. Oliver P. Roberts, age 20, born August 1879, lived with his parents, Henry O. and Sarah E. Roberts, in Hopkins County in the 1900 census of Hopkins County, Texas. O. P. Roberts married Miss Anna Lee 11 July 1909 in Van Zandt County, TX. Oliver P. and Anna Roberts were in the 1910 census of Van Zandt County, Justice Precinct 1. Henry O. Roberts and wife were in the 1910 census of Van Zandt County, Precinct 1. O. P. Roberts and Anna Roberts were divorced 10 November 1910 in Van Zandt County. Oliver Roberts and Molly Brown were married 21 August 1912 in Van Zandt County. Oliver Pleasant Roberts registered for the WWI draft in Little River County, Arkansas, 12 September 1918. He reported his date of birth as 26 August 1878, and his nearest relative was Mollie Roberts of Arkinda, Arkansas. Henry O. and Elizabeth Roberts lived in Arkinda, Arkansas, when the 1920 census was recorded. Henry had no occupation.
What happened to Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry O. and Sarah E. Roberts, if he did not marry Mollie Brown?
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on May 24, 2017 16:59:45 GMT -5
"Oliver Roberts, age 1, is in the household of his parents, Henry and Elizabeth Roberts. Also in the household is Martha Roberts, age 6, who married Dudley Heath about 1890. Oliver P. Roberts, age 20, born August 1879, lived with his parents, Henry O. and Sarah E. Roberts, in Hopkins County in the 1900 census of Hopkins County, Texas. O. P. Roberts married Miss Anna Lee 11 July 1909 in Van Zandt County, TX. Oliver P. and Anna Roberts were in the 1910 census of Van Zandt County, Justice Precinct 1. Henry O. Roberts and wife were in the 1910 census of Van Zandt County, Precinct 1. O. P. Roberts and Anna Roberts were divorced 10 November 1910 in Van Zandt County."
NOTICE: after the above, we first begin to hear about Oliver (without the "P") and he begins to have problems knowing his correct birth year and date.
"Oliver Roberts and Molly Brown were married 21 August 1912 in Van Zandt County. Oliver Pleasant Roberts registered for the WWI draft in Little River County, Arkansas, 12 September 1918. He reported his date of birth as 26 August 1878, and his nearest relative was Mollie Roberts of Arkinda, Arkansas. Henry O. and Elizabeth Roberts lived in Arkinda, Arkansas, when the 1920 census was recorded. Henry had no occupation. "
So, "What happened to Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry O. and Sarah E. Roberts, if he did not marry Mollie Brown?"
Answer: We don't know what happened to him other than he disappeared. He's not the only person who ever disappeared without a trace. Our not knowing doesn't "prove" anything. I know how badly you wish it did, but it really doesn't.
|
|
|
Post by mckinley412 on May 24, 2017 17:11:54 GMT -5
TTT aka Texas Truth-Teller, good info. Do you have names of 5 Bolinger children from Samuel and Eva?
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 24, 2017 22:14:41 GMT -5
"Oliver Roberts, age 1, is in the household of his parents, Henry and Elizabeth Roberts. Also in the household is Martha Roberts, age 6, who married Dudley Heath about 1890. Oliver P. Roberts, age 20, born August 1879, lived with his parents, Henry O. and Sarah E. Roberts, in Hopkins County in the 1900 census of Hopkins County, Texas. O. P. Roberts married Miss Anna Lee 11 July 1909 in Van Zandt County, TX. Oliver P. and Anna Roberts were in the 1910 census of Van Zandt County, Justice Precinct 1. Henry O. Roberts and wife were in the 1910 census of Van Zandt County, Precinct 1. O. P. Roberts and Anna Roberts were divorced 10 November 1910 in Van Zandt County."
"NOTICE: after the above, we first begin to hear about Oliver (without the "P") and he begins to have problems knowing his correct birth year and date."
That statement is not entirely true. He appears in 4 official government records after 1910. Oliver Pleasant Roberts registered for the WWI draft in Little River County, Arkansas, 12 September 1918. He reported his date of birth as 26 August 1878, and his nearest relative was Mollie Roberts of Arkinda, Arkansas. O. P. Roberts bought ans sold 80 acres of land in Sevier County, Arkansas, in 1918. 1920 census, Van Zandt County. Oliver P. Roberts is living in the household of his future step-daughter, Allie Isaac Murff (1894 - 1966) and her husband, James C. Murff.
Sometime after January 1920 Brushy Bill chose to be known as Oliver, or Ollie. Maybe he told Lizzie his name was Ollie L. Roberts since she was the informant listed on the death certificate, and provided a birth date of 1868.
"Answer: We don't know what happened to him other than he disappeared. He's not the only person who ever disappeared without a trace. Our not knowing doesn't "prove" anything. I know how badly you wish it did, but it really doesn't."
There is no basis for assuming that Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts disappeared from Van Zandt County other than it is essential to keep the Brushy Bill fable afloat.
Wish? No. The facts speak for themselves. Oliver P. Roberts' life is documented from his birth in 1880 until his death in 1950 Billy the Kid's death is documented by the coroners jury report and newspaper articles of 1881. Brushy Bill's story is a stand-alone story not supported by any corroborating, credible, witness or record.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 24, 2017 22:59:16 GMT -5
Thain, I have not verified this information.
Children of Eva Teletha Counts and Samuel Bolinger.
Newton Bolinger (1835 – 1850) Martha Bolinger (1837 – 1913) m. John W. Ferguson (1830 – 1870) m. 2nd Joseph Riggs (1832 – 1902) Find A Grave Memorial# 19078383 Mary Elizabeth Bolinger (1838- 1912) m John Bridges (1834 – 1862) m 2nd Presley Riggs (1839 - 1909) Find A Grave Memorial# 8495351 Samuel Miller Bolinger 1843 - 1865
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 25, 2017 12:41:44 GMT -5
Thain, The Samuel Bolinger family is in Madison County, Arkansas, in the 1840 census. Family members include a female of 20 and under 30 (Eva Talitha Counts was about 27), 1 male of 5 and under 10 (Newton was 5), four females under 5 (Martha, Mary, and Sarah). I have found no record of Sarah after the 1850 census. Sarah must have been a daughter of Eva Talitha Counts and Samuel Bolinger. There is about a 4 year gap between Sarah and Samuel, suggesting the other daughter died before the 1850 census.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on May 25, 2017 15:57:39 GMT -5
TTT,
"Wish? No. The facts speak for themselves. Oliver P. Roberts' life is documented from his birth in 1880 until his death in 1950 Billy the Kid's death is documented by the coroners jury report and newspaper articles of 1881. Brushy Bill's story is a stand-alone story not supported by any corroborating, credible, witness or record."
When the newspaper in Silver City reported the dead guy had dark skin and a beard, was that credible? Of course you don't think so. When witnesses who knew Billy The Kid identified Brushy as the real Billy, was that credible? Of course you don't think so. When Pat Garrett's daughter claimed her father did not kill Billy, is that credible. Of course you don't think so. To you, nothing is credible unless it supports your beliefs.
But according to you, when the census taker reports inconsistent information on Oliver P. Roberts of the course of 70 years, there is no lack of credibility. Discrepancies are nothing more than unfortunate errors that don't question the "credibility" of your foregone conclusions.
So which is it? Are all recorded statements false or just the ones you don't want to believe?
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 25, 2017 18:55:15 GMT -5
“So which is it? Are all recorded statements false or just the ones you don't want to believe?”
Information is communicated in statements. The content may be facts, ideas, opinions, hearsay, or lies. I weigh the facts, discard unverified opinions, and ignore hearsay before arriving at a conclusion.
There are 2 glaring flaws with Brushy Bill's story, and numerous lesser discrepancies.
1. There is no credible proof that Billy the Kid was alive after 1881.
2. There is no evidence or proof of any kind that Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver P. Roberts were 2 different men. That is a major problem since both were married in Van Zandt County.
Juries are asked to make decisions based on the preponderance of the evidence. Defense attorneys emphasize discrepancies.
Snapshots of the life of Oliver P. Roberts are found in census, marriage, divorce, death, and WWI draft records from his birth in Sebastian County, Arkansas, until his death in Hamilton County, Texas. When he left his parents' home in Hopkins County and moved to Van Zandt County, his parents moved to the same precinct of Van Zandt County. When he moved to Little River County, Arkansas, where he registered for the WWI draft, his parents also moved to Little River County. All these events were recorded at the time by an impartial official. Discrepancies in these records include his reported age in the 1880 census, place of birth in census records after 1900, birthplaces of his parents in the 1910 census, year of birth on the WWI registration card, age in the 1940 census, birth date, middle initial, and place of birth on his death certificate.
Not a single record bearing the name of Brushy Bill Roberts, or William Henry Roberts has been found. There is only a story related by Brushy Bill Roberts to William V. Morrison, and written by C. L. Sonnichsen. Even his successive marriages to Anna Lee, Loutecia Ballard, and Melinda “Lizzie” Murrell Allison were not in his name. His purchase and sale of land in Arkansas was not in his name. So he used an alias all of his life OR HIS STORY WAS A TALL TALE!! Morrison solicited affidavits to bolster Brushy Bill’s story. The Jones brothers declined to sign. Robert E. Lee, DeWitt Travis, and Martile Able signed affidavits saying they BELIEVED Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, although none of them had ever seen Billy the Kid before 1881.
What credible, verifiable records or proof have you discovered that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid in your many years of research and study?
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on May 26, 2017 0:00:33 GMT -5
There is also, no real proof that Billy The Kid died in 1881.
There is much evidence that Brushy Bill and Oliver P. were two different men. Eyewitness testimony, handwriting from the two that absolutely do not match, and all the evidence that supports the claim that Brushy was Billy The Kid. If he "was" Billy then he was "not" Oliver P. Roberts and that evidence then becomes more than just credible. It becomes "iron clad".
You ask what credible, verifiable records or proof I've discovered. While I have often stated there is no "proof", I do believe the testimony of Severo Gallegos is credible and it is verified that he made the statements. That's one example. There are many that are verified and credible by my interpretation and conviction. You see things through a different lens. So I ask you a question.
Do you believe it has been "proven" beyond any doubt that Brushy Bill Roberts was not Billy The Kid?
|
|
|
Post by mckinley412 on May 27, 2017 13:53:20 GMT -5
Who was Billy Barlow? In 1880 census there is 20 year old Iaisoeo Efon living with Celsa Gutierrez and her "husband" aka Pat's brother-in-law. His occupation is sheepherder. Seems like I heard a sheepherder was buried instead but maybe not. Pete had a lot of sheepherders I guess but Brushy claimed he himself had been staying at Celsa 's so could this be his partner? truewestmagazine.com/caught-with-his-pants-down/. You will also find this article interesting. Another version if what happened.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 27, 2017 17:59:15 GMT -5
“You ask what credible, verifiable records or proof I've discovered. While I have often stated there is no "proof", I do believe the testimony of Severo Gallegos is credible and it is verified that he made the statements”
Severo did sign an affidavit prepared by Morrison that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. The credibilty of that affidavit is suspect, for Morrison introduced Brushy Bill to Severo as William H. Bonney. Severo talked with Brushy Bill. Severo told Morrison that Brushy Bill was not old enough to be Billy the Kid. Morrison wanted a signed affidavit. Morrison arranged a second meeting. Severo peered into Brushy Bill’s eyes, and agreed to sign Morrison’s affidavit. Question: Did Severo feel pressured and agree to sign the affidavit? Is it likely that a boy under 10 would be observant enough to notice unusual eye characteristics? Would a boy of 10 be close enough to Billy the Kid to detect unusual eye characteristics?
"There is much evidence that Brushy Bill and Oliver P. were two different men. Eyewitness testimony, handwriting from the two that absolutely do not match, and all the evidence that supports the claim that Brushy was Billy The Kid."
Please cite the eyewitness testimony. Please cite the provenance of the handwriting samples used for comparison. Please identify the handwriting expert. I do not believe there is any evidence that Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver Pleasant Roberts were two different men.
There is no evidence that supports the claim that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. The affidavits of Robert E. Lee, DeWitt Travis, and Martile Able are not worth the paper they are written on as evidence.
|
|