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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 24, 2011 12:02:02 GMT -5
I thought I would add a new category of boards for the discussion of movies and TV programs. If anyone else has seen the Decoded episode about Billy and has an opinion, this would be a good place to start.
I thought the show was well done but would like to have seen them spend more time investigating Brushy's story. Of course that would be an entire episode or more all by itself. Two of the three investigators believed Garrett lied about killing Billy but none of them believed Brushy's story. Even though they didn't investigate his story very much, I fail to see how they could just dismiss it.
BTW, I disagree with Sederwall's opinion that Bell was shot at the top of the stairs during Billy's escape from Lincoln. I think the blood at the top of the stairs was from Bell's head wound. It is a part of the record that he had two gashes in his head. If Bell died the way Sederwall suggests, why were there two gashes in his head? I believe it happened the way Brushy said it did. As for Bell's gun being in his holster afterwards, I believe that was never confirmed.
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Post by nmjames on Nov 24, 2011 13:22:24 GMT -5
I would like to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving.
I watched Brad Meltzer's Decoded and don't think it was very well done. There were way to many things wrong and I don't think they did their research.
The lady that stated that Billy was kin to a Deputy was wrong. Kip McKinney and Tom O'Folliard were kin by marriage. One of Tom's uncles was married to a McKinney. I don't think Billy knew Garret except in Fort Sumner and it is said they knew each other but were not great friends.
As for the gun being on Bell, it is said that Lucius Dills, a Lawyer and first editor of the Roswell Record proved that Bell's gun was still on him after Billy shot him.
I will post more later.
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Post by nmjames on Nov 27, 2011 23:58:24 GMT -5
I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.
I don't agree with Sederwall that Garrett put the gun in the latrine. I don't agree with most people on Garrett. I think he was a good lawman and don't think he would be so low as to give Billy a gun to kill Bell and Olinger.
I do feel there was a gun placed in the outhouse. The most used name is Sam Corbet but there has been others that stated they put the gun there. John Meadows states that Billy told him how he escaped but I don't think Billy would have told anyone that a gun was placed in the outhouse to protect them.
Wayne, as for Brushy's story, the blood at the top of the stairs was a large amount of blood. There is no way in Brushy's story that Bell would have been in that spot long enough to bleed that much. I also have a question about Brushy's story. If I am reading it correctly, Brushy had the upstairs wrong. He states: Across the hall from Garrett's office door was another door opening into the armory room. That is not correct. The room across from Garrett's office was what was Mrs. Lloyd's room. The other prisoners were keep there. The arms room was at the south end of the hall to the left of the stairs if you were coming up the stairs.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 28, 2011 11:17:54 GMT -5
Brushy didn't say which direction the armory was other than "across the hall". Having visited the courthouse myself, I don't remember there being a room to the left as you come up the stairs, other than Garrett's office. Maybe I'm just not remembering correctly? But either way, whether it was to the left or the right of Garrett's office, it was still "across the hall" wasn't it?
I've seen the photos of the blood Sederwall found at the top of the stairs and to me it doesn't look like there's so much it couldn't have come from the head wound. Brushy said he hit Bell in the head twice. It is a fact Bell had two gashes in his head. Brushy didn't describe any delay at the top of the stairs that would have allowed time for Bell to bleed that much from the head, but he was telling the story some 70 years after it happened.
I fail to see the logic in Sederwall's version. If true, then when and how did Bell get the two gashes to his head? Why was there no bullet hole at the top of the stairs? Wouldn't there have been blood splatter or spray on the wall at the top of the stairs and if so, why didn't Garrett report that? How did Bell get to the bottom of the stairs and out the door? It just doesn't all add up in my opinion.
Brushy says said after killing Ollinger he went downstairs and Gauss was near Bell's body. He says Gauss tried to saw the chains but it wouldn't work, then he got an axe to cut them with. And this is key, he then says he held Bell's .44 on Gauss while he swung the axe. So at that point he still had Bell's gun. But he then went back up to the armory and grabbed other guns. Did he put Bell's gun back in it's holster before heading back upstairs? Or did he leave it with the body, possibly because he felt bad about killing him? It doesn't sound like he took Bell's gun with him when he rode out of town!
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Post by nmjames on Nov 28, 2011 22:49:37 GMT -5
No Brushy didn't say what direction, He said, "Across the hall from Garrett's office door was another door opening into the armory room." He didn't say down the hall to the south. I understand this to mean across the hall in what was Mrs. Lloyd's Room. I'm not going to type his statement about what happen as they entered the hall. You have the book.
When I said that the arms room was at the south end of the hall to the left coming up the stairs. I should have said it was to the right coming up the stairs. I was thinking about Bell going down the stairs and said to the left. Anyway, the arms room is to the right (South) at the top of the stairs. Another thing that Brushy got wrong is the time of day this happen. It didn't happen at noon, it happen about 5:00 PM.
The old stairs are no longer there. They had to be replaced. The boards at the top of the stairs are the one's that were there when Bell was shot.
In Sophie Poe's book Buckboard Days, she states that the back stairway was still stained with Bell's blood from two years before when Bell was shot by Billy the Kid while climbing those stairs and his body falling to the bottom of them.
As for Brushy's story about holding a .44 on Gauss while he swung the Ax. Again this is Brushy's story and not the story Gauss told. Billy never left the building until he got the chains parted with a miners pick. You also state that Brushy said he held Bell's .44 on Gauss. On page 45 of Morrison's book, he states. I held a .44 on him. He didn't say Bell's .44.
Again the story around Lincoln back when I was a kid was that Sam Corbet or someone hid a gun in the outhouse. Brushy talk's about Corbet going to place a gun in the outhouse but he said he didn't need it. On the bottom of Page 43 note 43: Taylor got the same story from Francisco Salazar at Lincoln but thought Billy used Corbett's gun.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 29, 2011 1:42:35 GMT -5
We probably shouldn't get into a debate over semantics but I will just try to clarify my thinking on the position of the armory. When someone says "across the hall" it doesn't necessarily mean "directly across the hall". Also, Brushy's comments in Morrison's book are only one version that's out there. The book itself specifies that some of the quotes are not exact and in fact, Brushy discussed the same incidents on more than one occasion during the interviews with Morrison. In the book "Billy The Kid, The Lost Interviews" by W.C. Jameson, which claims to represent the full taped interviews, Brushy states he held Bell's gun on Gauss while the chains were cut with an axe. On the issue of the blood, I'd also suggest that Sederwall's investigators probably did not remove the plywood from the floor in the area where Billy was chained to the floor. If they had, they probably would have found some blood there.
I hate to defend Garrett but I just think he had no reason to lie about what happened in that stairwell. He knew Bell's head was badly wounded which I believe and he may have thought could explain the blood on the floor at the top of the stairs. But if Bell had been shot there, he would have also found blood on the walls or possibly a bullet hole. I admire and appreciate Sederwall's efforts to get at the truth but with all respect to those efforts, Garrett had the benefit of seeing "all" the evidence while it was still fresh, bullet holes, blood sprays, head wounds and all. So I think his opinion of what happened could not have been so wrong as Sederwall's investigation suggests. It would have served no purpose for him to create such a totally impossible report on the shooting.
So I don't think Bell was shot at the top of the stairs.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 29, 2011 11:31:48 GMT -5
Another thought occurs to me. Brushy said Bell had made it to the "third or fourth" step by the time he fired at him. I had always thought he meant third or fourth from the bottom. But reading it again, he does say Bell then fell down the stairs, dieing as he fell. So he probably meant third or fourth from the top. If he was indeed just 3 steps from the top, the bullet passing through him could have caused him to fall back toward the top of the stairs where some amount of blood spilled out there as he fell. Still, how much blood comes from a bullet wound in one second or so? I still question whether the blood at the top came from the bullet wound, but whether he was shot "at the top" as in standing in the hallway at the top or whether he was "3 steps down the stairs", doesn't necessarily make that much difference does it?
Just thinking out loud.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 29, 2011 18:10:29 GMT -5
I did some research just to see. Of course, my research is from a novice viewpoint and spending a few minutes searching on the internet doesn't make me any kind of expert. But here's what I found out.
A 155 lb. male would have about 1.5 gallons of blood in his body and the "fastest" he can bleed from a gunshot wound be about 20% of that in 4.6 seconds. The Decoded program said there was 2 liters of blood at the top of the stairs. That's about 1/2 gallon of blood. According to the above, it would then take a minimum of about 1.5 seconds to bleed that much. In other words, yes, Bell could have been shot at the top of the stairs and bled that much very quickly as he began falling down the stairs.
But another point must be mentioned as I watched the program again. When they showed a graphic of spraying the luminol at the "top of the stairs" they were not actually spraying on the floor of the hall way, but on the area at the top 3 or 4 steps of the stairway. Consistent with where Brushy says Bell was when he shot him. Hello!!!
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Post by nmjames on Nov 29, 2011 19:23:27 GMT -5
I don't have much time as I need to go back to work but will answer the Hello!!!! I wasn't going to bring this part up but since you did. The trouble with the blood at the top of the stairs, it goes down the stairway as you state. The trouble is, that part was replaced way after 1881. ??
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 29, 2011 19:49:07 GMT -5
So where did that blood come from? Do you know if there was some kind of incident there after the stairs were replaced?
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Post by nmjames on Nov 29, 2011 21:52:48 GMT -5
I can only guess how that blood got there. I don't know of any incident after the stairs were replaced. I don't know how long it's been there. It is said that the hole at the bottom of the stairs was put there by a ranger sometime after 1935. I don't remember if it was in the 40s or 50s. The story goes that people keep asking where the hole in the wall was and after the courthouse was closed one day, he said people want a hole, I will give them one and shot the hole in the wall. Some people do not think there was ever a bullet hole in the wall but I have read stories about school kids digging the bullet out. I don't know if they put the blood there also but if they did where did they get human blood.
I will send an e-mail to a friend that might have info on when the stairs were replaced and if they were replaced all the way to the top as I have been told.
Question Wayne, reading Brushy's story about how he shot Bell, what side of the wall did he say he hit. Looking down the stairs to the bottom, left side (south) or right side (north) ?
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 29, 2011 23:22:24 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing. I don't think Brushy said which side of the wall his bullet hit. But if he shot from the floor as Bell was headed down the steps and Bell was hit from the right, the bullet would have to have ricocheted off the right side as you're looking down the stairs.
Also of interest, I went back to Sederwall's site and viewed the photos again and reread the story about them finding the blood. They did indicate the blood they found was on the boards of the hallway floor because they talked about it extending past the stairs. They also provide photos of the stairwell from underneath showing water stains they believe to be from where Sophie Poe tried to mop up the blood stains. Also, the way Sederwall says it happened, Bell was following Billy up the stairs, when Billy reached the landing he turned around and put the gun on Bell who was still a few steps down the stairs. Bell grabbed the barrel of the gun, and they both fell to the floor, Billy on the landing and Bell on the stairs. The gun went off as they fought over it, Bell wouldn't let go of the gun so Billy hit him over the head twice, Bell let go and tried to run down the stairs. As he reached the outside he fell dead. If this version is correct, then there was plenty of time for blood to accumulate on the stairs, "and" the landing as they struggled. Interesting theory!
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Post by nmjames on Nov 29, 2011 23:47:33 GMT -5
So is Sederwall saying that the stairs are from 1881? I sent an e-mail to my friend and I hope to hear back tomorrow. I will let you know.
This is what Brushy had to say. Page 44 of Morrison's book after he hit Bell. I told him that I would not hurt him if he would do as I said. I told him to walk through that office and unlock the armory door as I wanted to lock him in there until I could escape. With out saying a word, he walked through the office. When he stepped into the hall, he ran for the stairway. With the fourteen-inch chain between my leg irons, I could not run, so I jumped and slid across the floor to the left toward the stairs. When he reached the third or fourth step, my left hand was nearing the stairs. I pulled the trigger and the bullet struck the wall on that side. It must have ricocheted and struck him under the arm, coming out the other side. Bell fell down the steps, dying as he fell.
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William H Bonney my hero
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Post by William H Bonney my hero on Nov 30, 2011 8:33:26 GMT -5
i Gotta agree, it was really fast the way they just dismissed Brushy story. they must know something we do not know.
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