IF ONLY....

[William H Bonney my hero]

I have created below, which is an "If Only" list pertaining to Billy the kid (Brushy Bill roberts) who died in Hico, texas of a heart attack.

"If Only" just one or two of the things on my list below had actually occurred, then not only would of the real History of Billy the kid have been rewritten, but Billy very likely would have been pardoned by Governor Mabry. If Only....


IF ONLY .... photographers and reporters, Oscar and Jarvis Garrett (Pat’s sons), Cliff McKinney (Kip McKinney’s son), Arcadio Brady (William Brady’s grandson), and historians William Keleher, E. B. Mann, and Will Robinson were kept out of the the conference room.


IF ONLY .... Governor Mabry let gave Morrison a chance at presenting the evidvence.

IF ONLY ....Mabry seeing the state Billy was in when he entred order the armed policemen to get the crowd of reporters out of the room.

IF ONLY....Billy told Mabry that the reporters were making him feel ill so that they would taken out of the room, if he said that, he might not foggten about everything as Billy the kid and answered the questions correctly.

IF ONLY.... Gov. Mabry gave Billy a second chance at talking the questions rather then not pardon him already.

IF ONLY.... the number of people, who positively identified Brushy Bill as Billy the Kid anconnpyed (Sorry for spelling mistake) him to the meeting.


If only.

[Sam Fraser]

Five people who had known Billy the Kid signed affidavits that they believed Roberts and the Kid were one and the same.

[Texas Truth Teller]

"Five people who had known Billy the Kid signed affidavits that they believed Roberts and the Kid were one and the same."

Sam,
Your statement is a true statement.  They believed Roberts and the Kid were one and the same.  At least 3, and probably all 5, of the affidavits fail to prove that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.  Consider the following facts:

The five who signed affidavits were DeWitt Travis, Martile Able, Robert E. Lee, Severo Gallegos, and Jose B. Montoya.

Census, cemetery, and WWI draft records prove DeWitt Travis was born about 1889.  He never saw Billy the Kid.  He knew Brushy Bill, and believed his story that he was BtK.

Census, cemetery, and marriage records prove that Martile Able was Martelia Bilberry Abel, the wife of John C. Abel.  Martile Able wa born about 1873 and was a resident of Lampasas County, Texas, in 1800 while Billy the Kid was participating in the Lincoln County War.  Martile Able never saw Billy the Kid.  She believed Brushy Bill's story that he was Billy the Kid.

Robert E. Lee, in his affidavit, transcribed in "Alias Billy the Kid", by C. L. Sonnichsen and W. V. Morrison, Appendix F, #5, stated the first time that he saw William Bonney was in 1889.  By his own sworn statement, Robert E. Lee confessed that he had never seen Billy the Kid before 1881.

[XS59]

Texas Truth Teller,
Re: Robert E. Lee's and the other affidavits: apart from the question of Brushy actually being the Kid or not, I find it interesting that there are sworn affidavits from people who claimed that they've met with a person they believed to be Billy the Kid AFTER he had supposedly been killed. What are we to make of that? Who was the guy Robert E. Lee allegedly was introduced to? If the real Billy was lying in his grave there must've been impostors very early on. If the impostor whom Robert E. Lee met was Brushy Bill - as the affidavit seems to imply, then Brushy must 've started very early with his scam. In this case he can't have been Ollie Roberts and the question arises who he actually was. If Robert E. Lee was mistaken and the person he met was not Brushy, then he must've met with another impostor or possibly the real Billy. In both cases it would be interesting what happened to either the impostor or the real Billy afterwards.
I think most people have been too fixated on the question if the persons who signed the affidavits had known Billy the Kid before his alleged death in 1881, thus being qualified to testify that Brsushy Bill was really the Kid. As it is, they may not have been in the position to do that. But it is highly interesting that there were people ready to swear that they were introduced to a person who claimed to be Billy the Kid just a few years after he supposedly died. What had such an early impostor - if that's what he was - to gain from such a claim? Certainly the death sentence was looming much larger in the early years than in later decades during the 20th century.

[Texas Truth Teller]

XS59,
"Re: Robert E. Lee's and the other affidavits: apart from the question of Brushy actually being the Kid or not, I find it interesting that there are sworn affidavits from people who claimed that they've met with a person they believed to be Billy the Kid AFTER he had supposedly been killed. What are we to make of that?"

Give them the benefit of the doubt. They believed Brushy Bill when he told them he was Billy the Kid, or they believed Morrison when he introduced Brushy Bill as Billy the Kid. They could, in good conscience, swear that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid if they believed he was BtK.
Without the benefit of the doubt, they were lying since they had never seen BtK.

This seems to be the probable explanation. Morrison thought that Brushy was Billy the Kid, although on page 17 of his book, he said Brushy Bill was not old enough to be Billy the Kid. Morrison listened to Brushy's story, which had lots of details about the Lincoln County war, the trial, escape, etc., and must have been convinced that he was Billy the Kid. Morrison did not find proof that Brushy was Billy the Kid. Morrison and Brushy embarked on a trip in April 1950 to find old timers who could confirm that Brushy was BtK. Morrison found 5 individuals who were willing to swear that Brushy Bill was BtK. All 5 knew Brushy Bill, or had been introduced to Brushy Bill by Morrison as BtK. At least 3, DeWitt Travis, Martile Able, and Robert E. Lee, had never seen BtK, and Severo Gallegos initially said that Brushy Bill was not old enough to be BtK.

What did Brushy have to gain? Brushy Bill's friend, J. Frank Dalton had just signed an affidavit the year before, in 1948, claiming he was the original Jesse Woodson James. National press coverage, instant fame. Trips to Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York City. Installed for a year at Meramec Caverns in MO as a tourist attraction. Free room and board. Must have been quite impressive for a farm laborer/cotton farmer named Oliver Pleasant Roberts, alias Ollie L., alias Brushy Bill.

Was Brushy Bill ever in danger of being hung? No. Brushy Bill had relatives in Texas who could be called as defense witnesses to testify that he was the son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, born in 1879.

[XS59]

Texas Truth Teller, I may not have expressed myslef very very. But my point wasn't if the affidavits were signed in good faith or not. I agree with you that they probably were. Morrisom might have acted honorable or not. About him I'm more doubtful. But that wasn't my point either. What I find interesting is that Robert E. Lee claims he was introduced to a person who claimed he was Billy the Kid as early as 1889 - which was only eight years after the Kid was supposedly killed at Fort Sumner. Morrison can't have had anything to do with that. So, either the Kid hadn't been killed and wasn't shy to make new friends despite the death sentence still looming large. Or there was an impostor making claims for whatever reason who ignored the risk of the death sentence. And eight years after the Kid supposedly died this was a considerable risk - unlike in the 20th century. When Brushy Bill made his claims he didn't risk all that much - no matter if he was the Kid or not. I agree with you on that point.
But if Robert E. Lee was telling the truth he had either met a surviving Billy the Kid around 1889 for the first time. Or he had met a very early impostor. In this sense the affidavit is important beyond the question if Brushy Bill was or wasn't the Kid IMO. What would an early impostor have to gain?

[Wayne Land]

This is all very interesting. It is true that Robert E. Lee claimed he had met the Kid in 1889. He also identified Brushy Bill as being that same person he had met. Therefore, if Brushy Bill's true identity was that of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, as many supporters of the status quo insist, then he was only 9 or 10 years old when Robert E. Lee met him. And at that age he was surely still at home with his parents. That is, Oliver P. Roberts was. So how can you explain Lee's identification of Brushy being consistent with Brushy being a fraud unless Robert E. Lee was simply lying? His affidavit could not likely have been his honest belief unless Brushy really was Billy The Kid. In my opinion, this gives more weight to Lee's affidavit than I had credited it with previously.

BTW, the above assertion that Martile Ables could not have met the real Billy before his death is based on prejudiced assumptions, Severo Gallegos absolutely "did" meet Billy prior to 1881 and Martile may very well have done so too.

[Texas Truth Teller]

XS59,
If anyone believes Brushy Bill's story as set forth in "Alias Billy the Kid", page 85, it appears that Brushy Bill spent 1888 riding horses in Wyoming in preparation for participating in the 1889 cowboy roundup. He says he rode the horse named Cyclone, won the championship, and Tom Waggoner gave him $10,000.

I do not believe Brushy Bill, DeWitt Weaver, Martile Able, or Robert E. Lee were very well acquainted with the truth.

[Texas Truth Teller]

CORRECTION:

XS59,
If anyone believes Brushy Bill's story as set forth in "Alias Billy the Kid", page 85, it appears that Brushy Bill spent 1888 riding horses in Wyoming in preparation for participating in the 1889 cowboy roundup. He says he rode the horse named Cyclone, won the championship, and Tom Waggoner gave him $10,000.

I do not believe Brushy Bill, DeWitt TRAVIS, Martile Able, or Robert E. Lee were very well acquainted with the truth.

[XS59]

Texas Truth Teller, you're still not getting my point. And I may just ruminate here. But Robert E. Lee claims two things: he was introduced to a person who claimed to be the Kid as early as 1889 and he believed that Brushy was identical with that person. Robert E. Lee could've been wrong about the second part, even if he wasn't lying. But it's inconceivable to me that he was erring in good faith about the first part. He surely should remember correctly if he was introduced to the Kid eight years after he had supposedly been killed. That must've been a stunner - unless it was common knowledge at the time within certain circles that the Kid had survived the skirmish at Fort Sumner.
My question is: how believable is Robert E. Lee's claim to have met a person who was supposedly the Kid around 1889? Is Robert E. Lee flatout lying or telling the truth? If he's telling the truth, did he really meet the Kid or an early impostor? What would such an impostor have to gain as early as 1889? This affidavid is very interesting beyond the question of Brushy being the Kid. It touches the question at the heart of this conundrum: did the Kid live beyond 1881?

[Texas Truth Teller]

XS59,
I'm slow, but I will try again.
Robert E. Lee said he was in New Mexico in 1889 and met someone who claimed to be Billy the Kid. Billy the Kid had been killed in 1881, and no one has proved that Billy the Kid was alive after 1881. Oliver P. Roberts, alias Brushy Bill Roberts, alias Ollie L. Roberts, was about 10 years old and living in his parents' household in Hopkins County in 1889. Wayne Land is really, really, big on theories. In a remarkable coincidence, a Robert E. Lee, born 2 October 1878, almost the same age as Oliver P. Roberts, is living in Hopkins County in 1900, 1910, & 1920 where Oliver P. Roberts lived for several years, including 1900. Was this the same Robert E. Lee that signed an affidavit for his old friend, Oliver P. Roberts, trying to help his friend prove he was Billy the Kid?

In short,
1. there is no proof that Robert E. Lee was kidnapped at age 15 by a band of horse thieves
2. there is no proof that Robert E. Lee was in New Mexico Territory in 1889
3. there is no proof that Robert E. Lee was rescued by Billy the Kid.

An unbelievable story is just an unbelievable story until it is supported by documented and credible facts.

Nothing about Robert E. Lee's New Mexico story is credible. Like DeWitt Travis, all Robert E. Lee had to gain was a moment in the spotlight of fame as an associate of Billy the Kid.

Robert E. Lee, in his affidavit, also said that he had been to New York City with Brushy Bill, Col. Davis, and others to support the claim of J. Frank Dalton that he was Jesse Woodson James. Dalton was an impostor.

[Wayne Land]

Dalton may have been an impostor. Just as it has not been proven Billy lived past 1881 it has also not been "proven" Dalton was an impostor. It has not been "proven" Billy died in 1881 either. As for Robert E. Lee's affidavit, it may or may not have had some elements of the truth in it but it proves nothing either way. Whether he believed what he was saying or was intentionally lying really doesn't matter that much unless he had met Billy prior to 1881 which he obviously did not. Severo Gallegos obviously "did" and Martile Ables may have. I think she did.

Yes, I am big on theories. Theories have solved many of the important questions in the universe. Most all new important discoveries begin with theories. So here's one that supports the Brushy doubters. Just to show I'm willing to consider both sides.

When I was a 10 year old kid, I had friends who liked to run around outside with me and pretend we were cowboys. I always liked to pretend I was Roy Rogers but I didn't grow up continuing to make that claim. I knew I really wasn't him. Maybe Robert E. Lee and Brushy played together as children and Brushy liked to "pretend" he was Billy The Kid. Maybe he loved it so much that he grew up learning all he could about the Kid's life and times and as he realized he had many physical traits in common he figured why not be famous and help his hero, Billy, get the pardon he deserved to have? Could this explain Oliver P. Roberts' motivation to pretend at the age of 78,79 if he believed he was near death anyway?

I'll wait for your responses before I explain why I don't think this theory works.

[Nik Oak]

I was thinking along the same lines as XS59 recently myself; but my reasons were that i had read a story supposedly by Ozark Jack claiming that Brushy had saved his life after a shootout at an outlaw dance In 1888. Brushy had played possum during the shooting and afterwards helped the wounded including Ozark. The same story was told independently by Brushy

[Wayne Land]

OK, I have some alone time right now and no one seems inclined to respond directly to my last post so I'm going to finish explaining my thinking on that.

There are small children who become so fixated on a make believe playmate that the playmate seems completely real to them. Many posters on this board and others who don't believe Brushy's story have tried very hard to find the smoking gun that should convince me he was a fraud. Some have tried too hard to the point of becoming offensive and trying to start personal arguments. They want this board to come down because they feel it is offensive to their hero Billy and his "true" history. His martyrdom even.

Well, in that last post, I gave you all the weapon you need to try and bring me to a negative conclusion about Brushy. I'm not saying it will succeed. I'm saying if anything would, it would be that line of thinking. In other words, you need to convince me there is logical and probable reason to believe an elderly man like Brushy would do what he did and risk his life for the legacy of someone he never met. But no one has taken the bait. So I'm going to give you even more. It is possible that Oliver P. Roberts, born in 1879 and 2 years old when Billy was killed in Fort Sumner grew up truly believing that he "was" Billy The Kid, reborn. Many children have grown up delusional and there are many people out there that truly believe they are some famous person, reincarnated. This would be enough to explain Brushy's behavior and his motivation.

But there is still the question lingering, how do you explain the coincidences and his knowledge of events that were not common knowledge as he was growing up? How did he know the historic layout of the Lincoln Courthouse so well unless he had visited it before the changes were made? How did he know the layout of the McSween property that had been burned down? We're finding likely confirmations of some of the events he described as happening to him after 1881. If his delusions began when he was a child, how did he know he would grow up to be the same stature with such similar facial characteristics as Billy even down to such things as matching hand shapes and finger length, and shoe size, sloping right shoulder, etc? How did an Arkansas farmer's kid acquire the scars that Brushy had and in similar places that match some of what we know about Billy's wounds? Why was Gallegos so convinced that Brushy's eyes were the only other ones he'd ever seen that looked just like Billy's unusual eyes?

Bottom line, you may be able to explain Brushy's motivations or why he was just a crazy old man seeking fame, but that's not enough. The coincidences are just too many and there was no psychological evaluation of mental illness. Since I am not a psychologist myself, I'm not qualified to determine the fellow was a brick short of a full load so in making my conclusion regarding the validity of his claims I approach the matter assuming he was not a loony tunes.

So there you have it. I don't think anyone will ever convince me he was a fraud, short of DNA proof or something equally as strong.

[Texas Truth Teller]

XS59,
"My question is: how believable is Robert E. Lee's claim to have met a person who was supposedly the Kid around 1889? Is Robert E. Lee flatout lying or telling the truth?"

There are indications that Robert E. Lee is flat out lying. He says in his affidavit that he did not meet BtK until the summer of 1889. Brushy said he was in Wyoming in 1888 and 1889. Robert E. Lee said that Buffalo Bill was well acquainted with Brushy's mother. Brushy said his mother, Mary Adeline Dunn, born near Lexington, Kentucky, died about 1863. Buffalo Bill (William Frederick Cody) was born in Iowa in 1846. The Cody family moved to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, in 1853. He worked for the Pony Express starting in 1860; then with a freight caravan delivering supplies to Fort Laramie, Wyoming, before joining the Union Army in 1863. It seems rather doubtful that Buffalo Bill ever met Mary Adeline Dunn Roberts, and even more improbable that Buffalo Bill was well acquainted with her.