|
Post by Jim Johnson on Dec 1, 2013 12:35:25 GMT -5
Neither John Miller nor Oliver P. Roberts were Billy the Kid! Get real and accept the truth!
|
|
|
Post by Billy (Gun) Enwood on Dec 3, 2013 12:48:51 GMT -5
Hey Wayne very interesting comparisons and idea's, I also have problems believing the general belief of Billy's death, I believe it was a quick fix for fame on Garrett's part and as for the true Billy the Kid could well be either one of these people, in my opinion pushing more towards the story of brushy Bill Roberts and I think any information Brushy Bill Roberts (Billy The Kid) gave that has been deemed incorrect or incomplete could well be a bid for effort in concealing other crimes committed that would further his criminal attributes thus landing him in a whole load more trouble than he would already be. Brushy Bill Roberts seemed to have done what most outlaws would have and that is concealing his identity until either he is pardoned or hasn't got long to live. personally I do not think Garrett killed Billy that night, maybe wounded or maybe somebody else but whatever happened it wasn't Billy The Kid. People forget that very little people ever knew Billy the kid as the outlaw Billy the kid, No one knew what he looked like, he had many alias's and didn't reveal his true identity likely apart from the hand full of close friends Brushy Billy Roberts (Billy the kid) managed to talk and get to confirm his identity as The Real Billy The Kid.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Dec 3, 2013 15:34:28 GMT -5
Everything you say makes a great argument based on simple logic. I got interested in Brushy after seeing the movie "Young Guns II". I was curious about this old man portrayed in the movie as a surviving Billy The Kid and so I looked him up on the internet. The more I read about him, the more interested I became. Then in 2006, as relief from Hurricane Katrina, my wife and I set out to tour the U.S. via Motorhome. As we passed through Texas, we visited Dr. Jannay Valdez' Museum in Canton and met him. He allowed free access to dozens of file cabinets full of information he had acquired over the years and later met us in Hico (Brushy's last dwelling place) at the home of Judge Hefner who is also a well known Brushy historian and author. Sitting at the Judge's kitchen table sharing a pie with him and Dr. Valdez, I became forever smitten with the attempt to get to the truth. Since I have a more than intermediate level of skill with computer software, I began comparing faces from Brushy photos with that of Billy's famous tintype and was blown away by the remarkable similarity of overall and specific facial dimensions. I even found close to, if not identical, overall stature, posture, etc. When I heard about John Miller I tried the same comparisons and was convinced he was most likely "not" the same person who is pictured in the famous tintype. I won't say it is impossible, but I am firmly convinced John Miller was not the real deal.
Then came the naysayers who have tried tirelessly to convince me that Brushy made too many errors in his story and could not have been Billy. And I've tried to keep an open mind. I can't insist Brushy was Billy if I'm not willing to objectively consider all the evidence that says he was not. I believe in my heart that I have been and continue to be objective. If I'm not, then my opinion becomes somewhat invalid. So again, for you and anyone else who cares to review it, here are my considered conclusions so far.
Just about everyone on this planet, myself included, has told a lie or two along the way. Most everyone has exaggerated a story somewhere along the way. I think Brushy was no exception. I think he told some lies and made some exaggerations and forgot some things, got some facts mixed up. He was 90 years old for goodness sake. The night he escaped Fort Sumner probably didn't happen quite the way he told it. Maybe he just "skinned out", or maybe he fired a couple shots as he ran. But I don't think there was a gun battle of the magnitude he described. I think Billy Barlow was shot "on the porch", not in Maxwell's room and I think he was shot by Garrett through Maxwell's window as he was trying to cut some beef. I think Brushy did go to Cuba with Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders but some of the things he said happened there were either exaggerations or complete fabrications. I think he did ride with Buffalo Bill's wild west show. I think he did ride as a deputy for Judge Parker for awhile. I think there really was an Oliver "L" Roberts born around 1868 and Brushy started out pretending to be him around 1910. I believe Brushy knew too much and matched Billy's physique and facial dimensions too well to be ruled out as the real Billy because of the contradictions in his story. I can't prove he was Billy The Kid but no one has proven he was not and I think the evidence is heavily in favor of him being the real deal.
|
|
|
Post by Jason Jay on Dec 6, 2013 1:06:41 GMT -5
Hello I am a independent historian doing research into the case of Brushy Bill Roberts and the infamous "Billy the Kid"... I have one question for you. Was Brushy Bill Roberts illiterate?
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Dec 6, 2013 18:21:30 GMT -5
No he was not. Dr. Sonnichsen, William Morrison's co-author of "Alias Billy The Kid" once made a comment that Brushy was "not a literate man." Or at least he was quoted as having said that. He later explained that what he had meant to say was that Brushy was not an avid reader of books. That he was not "literary". This was in defense of the accusation that Brushy learned all he knew about Billy The Kid by reading the book "Saga of Billy the Kid". So on the one hand we have folks who insist Brushy learned certain things by reading about it while those same folks insist he was not literate. We actually do have samples of Brushy's handwriting and he in fact had filled a number of notebooks with remembrances.
I do wish we had some proof whether the letters that are attributed to Billy The Kid were actually written by him. Because they do appear to be in several different hands but they all look like more accomplished writing skills than the samples we have from Brushy's notebooks and letters. Brushy signed one of his letters as "Brushy Bill, Wilam Bonney. Note "William" is misspelled. But he was pushing 90 when the letter was written and Billy The Kid's letters are mostly signed with just the initial "W" or "Wm".
So many questions in this regard. But no, Brushy was not illiterate. There is no question that he absolutely could read and write.
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Dec 7, 2013 13:18:55 GMT -5
On page 90 of Morrison/Sonnichsen's book Alias Billy The Kid, they state Brushy knew to much to have been an outsider. He was not a literate man and could never have read up on his subject.
Brushy could read and write but not very well. It is said that his wife wrote some of his letters. Henry McCarty was said to have been able to read very well and as Wayne said had a"more accomplished writing skill." Most people that knew Billy said he could read and write very well. His letters have always been excepted as authentic. I don't think Morrison ever question whether Billy ever wrote the letters.
I feel Brushy could read magazines and the paper back books around in the 40s. I don't know if he was the type to sit down and read Ben-Hur.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Dec 7, 2013 22:44:34 GMT -5
Again, the question was whether Brushy was illiterate. The answer is no. He definitely could read and write well enough to be considered literate. Yes, I've also heard it said that Brushy's wife did his writing for him but there's no real evidence of that and in fact there is evidence to the contrary. At a time when Brushy was still keeping his identity a secret from his wife, he penned letters that were signed "Billy Kid". As for the Billy letters, compare the handwriting on all those letters. It is so very obvious they were not all written by the same person. Then it follows they were definitely not "all" written by Billy himself. Accepting that fact, we know he was not above having someone else write a letter for him and sign his name to it. We have to then accept that he might not have actually written "any" of them. Like so many things about Billy, we'll never know just how well "he" could read and write. Contemporaries who said he could read and write well may have been comparing his skills to someone who was in fact "illiterate" or someone who knew how to write their own name and little else. In other words, the standards for what was considered reading and writing well were different back then.
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Dec 8, 2013 1:45:55 GMT -5
Wayne may I ask what Billy letters you are talking about that don't match? I have four in front of me that were all from different times. One is a bill of sale he wrote to Dr. Hoyt, one is to Governor Lew Wallace on March 13, 1879, one is again to Governor Wallace dated March 2, 1881 and the fourth is a note he sent to Governor Wallace telling him to send Kimbrell to arrest him. They all look like the same hand writing to me. The only one that is a little different but one can still tell it is close to the other letters, is the one on March 2, 1881. Two of the letters I have copies of, I purchased from Santa Fe. They sent a nice cover letter telling about the letters. On the letter from March 2, 1881 they state, the Kid's letter in this set, has cramped handwriting. As he explained in another jail letter, that resulted from his wearing handcuffs. I have others but these were easy to get to.
Thanks nm james
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Dec 8, 2013 12:46:54 GMT -5
It has been stated a number of times from a number of sources that the letters don't all look the same. My personal verification of that comes from having visited Lincoln and viewing the letters on display upstairs at the Courthouse museum. I don't have copies of all of them but I'm sure they're available on line. I'll try and find some of the ones that don't match and post them for the board members to look at. Can't do that today but I'll try and have it done by mid week. Stay tuned!
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Dec 8, 2013 12:50:21 GMT -5
You might know something in this regard you can share. It is said that Govenor Lew Wallace had possession of the Letters Billy sent to him and somehow lost them or damaged some of them or something to that effect and, that upon realizing their historic significance, had his son write out fake ones based on his memory of what they contained. Have you every heard anything about that?
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Dec 8, 2013 14:20:02 GMT -5
Thanks Wayne, I would love for you to post them.
I have pictures of the ones' in the Courthouse and they look like the same writing to me. As to Gov. Wallace's son or anyone else writing out fake ones, I have never heard this. I know that about a year or two ago, one of Billy's letters to Gov. Wallace was found in some files in a museum in Ruidoso. It had been on loan to them from years back and they had miss placed it. It was not a copy, it was the original. I was able to see it before it was sent to Santa Fe. I have a copy of it and it's one that I had to buy. From what I understand it had never left the state and was not one that was in the Wallace collection. I can check with the person that showed me the letter to see if I am correct.
The Bill of Sale to Dr. Hoyt was never in the Wallace Collection and I don't think the note that he sent to Wilson to tell Wallace to send Kimbrell was from the Wallace Collection.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Dec 8, 2013 18:08:34 GMT -5
Here are three letters all supposedly written by Billy. I don't think any two of them are the same handwriting. Let's get a poll going. Just reply "Yes" if you think they're all the same or "No" if you think any two are different. Let's see if we can get a consensus.
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Dec 8, 2013 20:18:23 GMT -5
Wayne, These are three of the ones I have, If you look at the Gs, Y.s H.s C. Ps.and Ws.,I am no expert but they look like the same hand writing to me. I have more but these are very good samples.
Thanks for posting them. Let's see what other think.
nmjames
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Dec 9, 2013 14:05:47 GMT -5
Actualy, the first two are very similar except the general alignment and angle of the words are different, but the third one is way different in most all regards. The third one is a much steadier and accomplished hand. If Billy The Kid wrote those first two, then he did not write the third one. My opinion.
|
|
|
Post by nmjames on Dec 9, 2013 19:38:44 GMT -5
I feel all three are from the same Person. Look at the W on Wallace. Look at the Y's It looks alike to me. The second letter of March 2nd. is the one where Billy had on Handcuffs. Other things to think about is when and where did he write the letters. On a desk? On a bed" On the ground? What type pen did he use to write with.
Again, I am no expert but by looking at many of the different letters (W.Y. S. H. C. and others, I feel they are all three from the same person. (Billy).
You might post some of Brushy's known letters also.
nmjames
|
|