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Post by louismarmalade on Oct 11, 2019 10:04:42 GMT -5
HI, has anyone looked into the Passenger lists of ships coming in from Britain at the time where everyone had to be immigration registered on arrival, to find records of any McCarthys, Roberts, Dunns, Ferguson’s, Bonneys? I think it would be especially helpful If bushys/ Billy’s mother and her sister could be narrowed down a possible identification on the lists somewhere. Trying to trace them from the British start of the journey is difficult as the Irish often changed their names to start new lives (for various reasons) at that point in time. thnaks
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Post by louismarmalade on Oct 13, 2019 10:33:35 GMT -5
Great day in Liverpool today, Liverpool maritime museum really helpful and good for checking passenger lists of the Irish emigrating to America pre-1840. After that it becomes sketchy- as the famine years set in, the British government had in the policy of allowing as many ‘celts’ (as they disparagingly called them) to emigrate without any hindrance thus deleting the Irish numbers in resistance to their policies. A day trip across the channel has been suggested to look at The Irish passenger ships lists post 1840 then on to parish confirmation registers and famine relief registers to check the names and family members in county cork and county Wexford I’m feeling drawn to. (I’m an English Celt by heritage and can hardly believe what the British did to the Irish during the famine. Shameful and inhumane doesn’t even come close)
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Post by leeb on Oct 13, 2019 11:00:55 GMT -5
The famine was 45-49 that still gives you at least a ten year window. Don't think you'll get much joy. But you never know !
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Post by leeb on Oct 13, 2019 11:10:37 GMT -5
Oluckyman's got paddy roots he might be able to help.
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Post by Louis marmalade on Oct 14, 2019 5:38:49 GMT -5
I have found a Catherine of the right age group, who has a younger sister by several years called Mary, plus brothers. I’m focusing on Catherine as we know for sure she was definitely part of the billy the kid story, the sister Mary would link into brushys story. I feel when brushy said his real mother was American, and yet no birth certificate can be found, there is a real possibility she came in as a tiny baby and knew nothing other than being American and growing up there hence his statement of -my mother was American, born and bred, you just wouldn’t question it if you knew nothing else. Ireland at that time did not issue birth certificates so familial identification can only come by parish baptismal records and people registering for famine relief. What I’m really hoping for is to find that somewhere in Catherine’s and Mary’s parents / grandparents names, the name Adeline, as was very common then to give your descents a predecessors name as a middle name.
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Post by louismarmalade on Oct 14, 2019 9:57:25 GMT -5
Thankyou I have narrowed Catherine down to 3 families, one in county cork, one in county Wexford, and one family in county Derry, The Londonderry one looks most promising, Catherine is the right age, Mary is the right age and Bridget is the right a age. I am going to Belfast next week so will tie in the viewing church records with that. One challenge is that they may have the church records in Celtic which will make it very difficult as I don’t speak Celtic so will need a translation. The other problem is that every village has a church, every town has several churches and every city had dozens of churches. That makes a lot of churches to go to. But really, it all comes down to wether the Adeline name comes up as Mary’s second name for brushys story to have any truth in it. This could place the right Catherine for certain in Ireland but still doesn’t confirm any of the confusion of the beginnings of their being in America.
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Post by Marmalade on Oct 14, 2019 10:36:50 GMT -5
Thankyou Update,,, I have a certain match for the most promising Catherine’s relative to a town in county Sligo, I will start there. This fits with an account with I read of her specifically being northern Irish, rather than just Irish.
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Post by louismarmalade on Oct 14, 2019 10:54:21 GMT -5
Thankyou, yes the religious name prefixes were common, but in Ireland it was because when a younger person was confirmed into the Catholic Church, their “confirmation” ceremony, it was at that point a religious ,almost certainly a saints name, was given to them. Just adds to the difficulty in trying to trace them,
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Post by louismarmalade on Oct 14, 2019 11:00:58 GMT -5
Thankyou very much for your help and information. Could I just say that County Sligo is in the north part of the island of Ireland, but is in fact a part of Eire, not Northern Island as a part of Britain. I wouldnt want any of our Irish comrades getting upset, brexit is bad enough at the moment haha
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Post by MissyS on Oct 14, 2019 12:35:03 GMT -5
louismarmalade, I'm glad you joined the board, and I'm glad your researching this, I wonder about the name "Devine" in connection to Catherine? On the old church record believed to be Billy's baptism record it's has Henry McCarty, son of Patrick McCarty and Catherine Devine McCarty, born 17 September 1859, was baptized 28 September 1859 by Rev. J. Conron. I wondered if "Devine" could possibly have been a maiden name? In another thread about the church record some time ago there was a post that there used to be a cemetery marker for Catherine at one time with the name "Devine" on it. I found a link to the name "Devine" the origins of the name www.houseofnames.com/devine-family-crestOn that link if you put in McCarty it lists a few notables and passengers, it lists a Bridget McCarty, aged 18, a servant, who arrived in South Australia in 1854 aboard the ship "Fortune" There's variations of the spelling of names too, but the link is fun and maybe a little help to see a few passenger list by name.
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Post by Louis marmalade on Oct 15, 2019 4:44:03 GMT -5
Hi, that’s great thanks , the south Australian Bridget and mccarty you mentioned there in connection is a red herring I’m afraid. The Irish did emigrate to oz of course but not our particular Catherine, Mary and Bridget. What I struggled to work out is how someone could be a ‘half aunt” as brushy called Catherine. I mean, you’re either the child’s genetic mother’s or father’s brother or sister right? Or the spouse of said grouping would be your aunt or uncle by marriage only, obviously that all makes sense.. There are no other Connotations right? How could you possibly be a “half” - that really threw me for quite some time. That could not possibly be true so brushy was clearly a fraud. And the missing 10 years after the first documented evidence of her in New York could be explained in part if I have the right Catherine that is. But the Catherine’s story I’ve foused on and her family grouping matches brushys description of her being a “half” aunt. But if course it can only be proved with going to Ireland in person and searching the church records for confirmation of 1 birth In particular and 2 marriages, or in my search - the confirmation of a lack of a marriage and a deception. In the family I’ve got for her , it’s clear she was an extraordinary woman for her time, brave, resilient, resourceful, smart, seems to me she had the same survival abilities that billy had, it’s just that no one ever knew it.
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Post by Louis marmalade on Oct 15, 2019 4:58:24 GMT -5
Really what I’m saying, is that in times of survival, women are just as capable of deceit as men, and when it comes to the survival of a child, even more so, there is nothing a mother would not do to spare her child. Carefully manipulated, favourable presentation of the facts is one of them. Crossing continents is another
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Post by leeb on Oct 15, 2019 11:20:04 GMT -5
Hi, that’s great thanks , the south Australian Bridget and mccarty you mentioned there in connection is a red herring I’m afraid. The Irish did emigrate to oz of course but not our particular Catherine, Mary and Bridget. What I struggled to work out is how someone could be a ‘half aunt” as brushy called Catherine. I mean, you’re either the child’s genetic mother’s or father’s brother or sister right? Or the spouse of said grouping would be your aunt or uncle by marriage only, obviously that all makes sense.. There are no other Connotations right? How could you possibly be a “half” - that really threw me for quite some time. That could not possibly be true so brushy was clearly a fraud. And the missing 10 years after the first documented evidence of her in New York could be explained in part if I have the right Catherine that is. But the Catherine’s story I’ve foused on and her family grouping matches brushys description of her being a “half” aunt. But if course it can only be proved with going to Ireland in person and searching the church records for confirmation of 1 birth In particular and 2 marriages, or in my search - the confirmation of a lack of a marriage and a deception. In the family I’ve got for her , it’s clear she was an extraordinary woman for her time, brave, resilient, resourceful, smart, seems to me she had the same survival abilities that billy had, it’s just that no one ever knew it. l'm guessing perhaps you may be somehow related to the kid?
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Post by Lmarmalade on Oct 15, 2019 11:57:45 GMT -5
No not at all. I’m Liverpool born and bred. I know all my forebears - England’s Births marriage and death certification system is comprehensively detailed. Mind, having just said that, during ww2 my mum was a kid in the Liverpool blitz, her aunt and cousins were bombed out so came to live with her family, the aunt died soon after, the uncle was killed in the Italy campaign so my Nan and gramps raised the 2 cousins as their own children. It was only in passing 45 years later I asked who a B&w photo of a soldier was that I realised my mums brother and sister were actually her cousins - up to that point I would have sworn in a court of law that they weren’t. . Good example of how the truth becomes so clouded down the generations. Any one interested in billy the kid can see the brushy story hinges on Catherine and her roots and getting that comes from being in Ireland looking directly at records, I’m genuinely surprised all the various authors haven’t been there themselves to look for for the truth. I’m there for work occasionally I see no harm while there trying to locate the proof of Catherine and her family. Personally I don’t think brushy is billy, the inconsistencies and over exaggeration are one thing, but as a geriatric nurse myself working with 90 year olds , he just doesn’t have the aged bodily deportment, or complexion, or skin crease folds, finger joint nodule arthritis, height shrinkage by spine compression where the discs age degenerate, even the lower ear lobes elongate with age, I see it every working day, with my 90 year olds and I don’t see it in brushy.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 15, 2019 12:02:30 GMT -5
That's an interesting point regarding his apparent age but I wanted to ask if you think there could be exceptions. Aren't there some 90 year olds that don't look it in the ways you describe. I used to be a piano sales representative and I waited on a man once who looked to be in his 70's only to find out he was actually 101. Maybe we could research this a bit further.
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