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Post by leeb on Aug 28, 2019 12:55:08 GMT -5
It's just a tintype with no provenance whatsoever
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 29, 2019 11:54:52 GMT -5
Your efforts are appreciated and it is certainly possible that Brushy was just an acquaintance of Billy's rather than Billy himself. But be very careful about split photos lining up and transparency comparisons. Those techniques, while interesting, are a very poor indication of whether two faces actually match up. In the case of splitting photos in half like that, you are only comparing the vertical measurements of the faces, not the 3 dimensional measurements, in fact, not even two dimensions. And almost any two faces will look similar when you overlay transparencies at different opacity levels. You are mixing the traits of both faces into one face. That one resulting face is bound to resemble both original faces since it is made up of 50% of each one. Just sayin' be careful. Such comparisons are easily misleading.
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Post by leeb on Aug 29, 2019 14:21:26 GMT -5
It's just a tintype with no provenance whatsoever Correct. I've just scrutinised a picture of the chuckle brothers and perhaps they could have been the kid and brushy, they do look rather similar! |
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 29, 2019 19:04:43 GMT -5
Your efforts are appreciated and it is certainly possible that Brushy was just an acquaintance of Billy's rather than Billy himself. But be very careful about split photos lining up and transparency comparisons. Those techniques, while interesting, are a very poor indication of whether two faces actually match up. In the case of splitting photos in half like that, you are only comparing the vertical measurements of the faces, not the 3 dimensional measurements, in fact, not even two dimensions. And almost any two faces will look similar when you overlay transparencies at different opacity levels. You are mixing the traits of both faces into one face. That one resulting face is bound to resemble both original faces since it is made up of 50% of each one. Just sayin' be careful. Such comparisons are easily misleading. I understand your reasoning here, Wayne - no offence is taken. Where I'd used split images, these were full overlays that were scaled and matched up first, then split in half to show the similarities rather than just taking half a face and sticking it over the full face, which can be even more misleading. The different grades of transparencies were used for the same reason, to show how the features and overall shape etc matched up to determine the positioning of the overlays and the subsequent removal of the transparency for each image. The scaling of the image overlays was based solely on matching up the eyes of each subject to see if other features fell into place without have to stretch the images along the X or Y axis. It's always tricky doing these sorts of comparisons and showing the results as flat images where other people can't can't adjust them, so that's why I'm keen for others to tinker with the images and post their results to see if if they achieved similar results or something different. If you could recommend any other methods that could be used used to compare images, I'll be happy to give them a go. The thing that's stuck with me regarding Brushy's possible identity came about after reading Morrison's book a few years back; I found it curious that Brushy sometimes referred to Billy in the third person. Also, at the beginning of the book, Brushy mentioned that he'd been passing himself of as his half brother, presumably Joe, as his cover story with his wife and during his initial contact with Morrison. It's also curious that there was little mention of Joe in his story. If Brushy was Joe, then his story would make a bit more sense to me and the account he gave to Morrison would likely have been a fusion of Joe's story and Billy's story. For example, where Brushy had claimed to be living down Mexico way while records show that Ollie Roberts had been living with wives in the US, the Mexican elements could have referred to Billy's activities and the US marriages could have applied to Joe's activities while he lived under his assumed identity of Roberts. In this sort of context, Brushy could be considered partly a fraud but rather than simply being a case of a random person pretending to be Billy, it could be a case of a man acting with good intentions in order to clear his brother's name. There are still limitations with facial recognition techology.
"Facial recognition technology is mistakenly targeting four out of five innocent people as wanted suspects, according to findings from the University of Essex. The report -- which was commissioned by Scotland Yard -- found that the technology used by the UK's Metropolitan Police is 81 percent inaccurate and concludes that it is "highly possible" the system would be found unlawful if challenged in court."
The FBI relies on fingerprints for conclusive identification.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 29, 2019 21:26:32 GMT -5
I've been following that particular matter in the UK for some time and am inclined to agree with its findings within the context of the trials. Here's a link to the full report. Three dimensional facial recognition is still very much in its infancy, especially when in the hands of those who don't know how to use it properly. While two dimensional facial recognition can be more accurate, fingerprints and DNA are the gold standard for living and recently deceased subjects. As for the images I posted, I wouldn't put them in the same category as forensic-standard facial recognition and I'm sure there are others who would agree. oluckyman, This is an interesting article about two dimensional facial recognition. |
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Post by 1881- on Sept 9, 2019 15:28:17 GMT -5
If Brushy was Joe Antrim then who was the guy that died in Denver, Colorado on November 25, 1930 and is accepted as having been Billy the Kid’s brother, Joe?
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Post by 1881- on Sept 10, 2019 10:53:17 GMT -5
If Brushy was Joe Antrim then who was the guy that died in Denver, Colorado on November 25, 1930 and is accepted as having been Billy the Kid’s brother, Joe? Good question. It looks like there were actually two Joseph Antrims. 'Joseph Antrim A' was Billy's brother/half-brother/cousin/Brushy (pick your favourite) and 'Joseph Antrim B' was the one whose death was recorded in the 1930 death certificate. This should clarify things: Joseph Antrim A1880 Census – Silverton, CO Name: Jos. Antrim [Joseph Antrim] Age: 17 Birth Date: Abt 1863 Birthplace: New York Home in 1880: Silverton, San Juan, Colorado, USA Race: White Gender: Male Marital status: Single Father's Birthplace: New York Mother's Birthplace: England Occupation: Miner www.ancestry.com/interactive/6742/4240004-00749?pid=138795571920 Census – Denver, CO Name: Joseph Aurius [Joseph Antrim] [Joseph Gubbins] [Joseph Antrius] Age: 57 Birth Year: abt 1863 Birthplace: New York Home in 1920: Denver, Denver, Colorado Street: Larimer Street Residence Date: 1920 Race: White Gender: Male Marital status: Single Father's Birthplace: New York Mother's Birthplace: New York Able to Speak English: Yes Occupation: Cook search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=6061&h=86115770Joseph Antrim B1870 Census – Barkley, IN Name: Joseph Antrim Age in 1870: 15 Birth Year: abt 1855 Birthplace: Indiana Dwelling Number: 110 Home in 1870: Barkley, Jasper, Indiana Race: White Gender: Male Attended School: Y search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7163&h=205129281920 Census – Yuba, CA Name: Joseph Antron [Joseph Antrim] Age: 64 Birth Year: abt 1856 Birthplace: Indiana Home in 1920: Yuba, Sutter, California Street: Tagalder Ave Residence Date: 1920 Race: White Gender: Male Marital status: Single Father's Birthplace: Indiana Mother's Birthplace: Indiana search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=6061&h=19404237The 1930 Death Certificatewww.newspapers.com/clip/35791546/joe_antrim_death_certificate/The age of the man named in the death certificate is 76; this matches well with Joseph Antrim B but is nearly 10 years out for Joseph Antrim A. Where Joseph Antrim B was able to go from Indiana to California, then it's reasonable that he could have ended his days in Colorado. I ran a check on Ancestry to see if there were any death records of 'Joe Antrim' or 'Joseph Antrim' who'd died in California and I couldn't find any for men that had a date of birth from around 1855 to 1863; the earliest date of birth I could find for a Joe/Joseph Antrim who'd died in California was a man born in 1878 who then died in 1938: www.findagrave.com/memorial/88959228I then ran a search for the entire USA and couldn't find any relevant death records for a Joseph/Joe Antrim within the correct age ranges and places of birth. With the 1920 censuses for Josephs A and B, they were both enumurated on the same day - February 6th, so it's safe to say that they were two separate people. So at this stage, I'm confident that we have a death record from 1930 for a man whose birth name was Joseph Antrim, who was born in Indiana c.1855. However, we don't have a death record for Jospeh Mccarty-Antrim born c.1863. If someone can find a death record for the latter, please post a link on this thread. It's certainly possible that both men were present in Colorado at the same time throughout their lives and people may have confused Joseph Antrim B for Joseph Antrim A. Good work. Joseph Antrim B would have moved to Denver sometime after the 1920 census. It’s entirely possible that he died in Denver and was later mistaken for the Kid’s brother. But Joseph Antrim A (Joe McCarty Antrim) was still living in Denver as late as 1928 where he was interviewed by a reporter referred to him as "colorless". His continued presence in Denver up to that time doesn’t match with what we know of Brushy’s whereabouts. Are there any known newspaper articles about the death of Joseph Antrim in 1930 Denver? |
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Post by MissyS on Sept 10, 2019 18:38:13 GMT -5
Interesting thread and photos, I do believe that if Brushy wasn't Billy the Kid then he was probably someone that was close to him. I did find another link to a find a grave below and this one mentions Joe Antrim bartending in El Paso before wandering to Denver where he died. If there was more than one Joe Antrim then perhaps one could have stayed in Texas and the other one could have wandered to Denver? Of course whether it's a fact or not that he was a bartender in Texas is questionable? Also I believe William Antrim had been residing in El Paso TX at one time after Catherine died because there's a mention that he was there when he applied for his service pension from the U.S. Bureau of Pensions. There could have been some mining going on in the area at the time or William Antrim could have been in El Paso to visit Joe Antrim? Its just a guess? www.findagrave.com/memorial/42628153/joseph-antrim |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 2:14:10 GMT -5
The pictures of Brushy compared to Will and Joseph are rather striking. If Brushy isn't the Kid I'd still have to believe he was a cousin, just like he asserted that his mother was McCarty's cousin. Probably only a few years apart, and that's how he could have known a lot of things and had things in his trunk that nobody else seemed to have.
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