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Post by bloodybeaver on Jun 9, 2019 3:03:57 GMT -5
In the book Billy The Kid, Beyond The Grave it states that while working with the Anti-Horse Thief Association, Brushy found the dead body of his cousin, Oliver L. Roberts and returned it home to his family in Sulfur Springs, Tx. He then took on his cousin's name as an alias, one he was using when Mr. Morrison met with him in the late 1940's. Brushy's original grave marker states that his name was Oliver L. Roberts. When I looked into the census records, they all pop up as Oliver P. Roberts. The family of Oliver P. Roberts was living in Sulfur Springs in 1900, so it's probable they were also there in 1894, when Brushy reported finding his dead cousin's body. Was the cousin, in fact, Oliver P? If so, why did Brushy go by Oliver L? Was he just misinformed on his cousin's middle name? Just trying to clear up some confusion. So many aliases!
Thanks in advance to anyone that could help clear this up for me.
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Post by bloodybeaver on Jun 9, 2019 3:06:21 GMT -5
Also, follow up question. Is there evidence that William Henry Roberts was related to Ollie Roberts family?
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 9, 2019 10:52:21 GMT -5
Your question is a very important one and has been debated vigorously on this board for quite some time. I believe Brushy used the middle initial "L" because there really was a cousin Oliver L. who had died. I believe it was a coincidence that Oliver P., who had just divorced his first wife, disappeared around the same time. This would have been about 1910 give or take a year or so. We know Brushy himself was married three times after 1910. On all those documents he used the name Oliver L. or just Oliver. There is one document only where we know Brushy used the middle initial "P". That was on the draft registration he did in 1918. I believe the reason for the switch to P on that document was because it was Oliver P. who was being required to register and not Oliver L.
Others use the draft registration to attempt to prove Brushy's real identity was Oliver P. Roberts, but I don't accept that. Or they use the fact that no Oliver L Roberts shows up on any census records or birth records, etc. to try and prove that there was no real cousin Oliver L. Roberts. I don't accept that either because I know it is possible that such a person might not have ever participated in any official records.
I know this is all confusing and overly complex but I will add one more comment that might surprise a lot of board members. I have lately become convinced that if it truly was "Oliver P. Roberts" that Brushy was pretending to be, then his true identity likely "was" Oliver P. Roberts and not William H. Roberts. But since there is so much other compelling evidence that he really was Billy The Kid just as he claimed to be, I can't accept that the alias Oliver Roberts came from Oliver P. Roberts. I believe the alias was taken from a real cousin "Oliver L. Roberts" just as Brushy claimed. A cousin Oliver L who was either illegitimate or an abandoned child taken in by the Roberts family for some reason hidden from the census and any other documentation. That Roberts family could have been Brushy's uncle, his aunt, his 1st or 2nd cousin, etc. We'll likely never know. But if we do eventually find an Oliver L. Roberts born about the right time and a cousin, how ever far removed, to a William H. Roberts or to Oliver P. Roberts then we'd have a smoking gun of major, major significance.
I hope I cleared this OK at least from my view point. I'm sure Texas Truth Teller will soon chime in on this and repeat his collection of census data to prove there was no Oliver L. and that Brushy was the true Oliver P. Have fun trying to sort it out.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 9, 2019 16:30:03 GMT -5
Also, follow up question. Is there evidence that William Henry Roberts was related to Ollie Roberts family? bloodybeaver, There is no record of a William Henry Roberts in the extended Roberts family descended from Joseph Roberts, the grandfather of Oliver Pleasant Roberts. There is no evidence that William Henry Roberts ever existed. Brushy Bill claimed that was his birth name. He also claimed he changed his name when he was 3 years old. The name, "William Henry Roberts", does not appear in any record, but is on the second gravestone of Malinda E Roberts' husband. The name, Ollie L Roberts, was on his death certificate, with a birth date of 31 Dec 1868. That same information was on his initial cemetery marker. FAG 12809.
There are 2 corrections that should be made to the find a grave memorial. In the header, there is no evidence that the original name of Oliver Pleasant Roberts was William. Malinda E Roberts was the informant who supplied the name, birth date and birth place of Ollie Roberts. The second error is obvious: "She (Malinda) died 10 Feb 1948, Marlin, Falls County, TX; buried in Evergreen Cemetery, Marlin, Falls Co, TX." Malinda E Roberts was the D/C informant when her husband died in 1950. This should be corrected, for Malinda Elizabeth Long died 10 June 1958 in Temple, Bell County, TX (D/C 31059). The informant was her daughter, Mrs. W. J. Weidner (Phoebe Lillian Allison), who first married Homer DeWitt Short in Hamilton County in 1925; then married Walter J. Weidner in Erath County in 1949.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 9, 2019 17:56:31 GMT -5
In the book Billy The Kid, Beyond The Grave it states that while working with the Anti-Horse Thief Association, Brushy found the dead body of his cousin, Oliver L. Roberts and returned it home to his family in Sulfur Springs, Tx. He then took on his cousin's name as an alias, one he was using when Mr. Morrison met with him in the late 1940's. Brushy's original grave marker states that his name was Oliver L. Roberts. When I looked into the census records, they all pop up as Oliver P. Roberts. The family of Oliver P. Roberts was living in Sulfur Springs in 1900, so it's probable they were also there in 1894, when Brushy reported finding his dead cousin's body. Was the cousin, in fact, Oliver P? If so, why did Brushy go by Oliver L? Was he just misinformed on his cousin's middle name? Just trying to clear up some confusion. So many aliases!
Thanks in advance to anyone that could help clear this up for me.
bloodybeaver, There are theories, and there are facts.
Nora Roberts (29 APR 1892 - 6 MAY 1893) memorial #19876983, a younger sister of Oliver P Roberts, is buried in the Miller Grove Cemetery in Hopkins County, confirming that the Roberts family were still residing in Hopkins County at that time. She didn't live long enough to be in census records, but her parents' initials are on the cemetery marker. The same is true of Lonnie Roberts, buried in the same cemetery.
Census records leave no doubt that Oliver P Roberts was born August 1879 in Sebastian County, AR; was in Hopkins Co, TX, in 1900; Van Zandt Co in 1910, 1920, & 1930; and in Gregg Co in 1940.
Brushy Bill said that he married Mollie Brown, Lutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison, but records reveal they married Oliver, Ollie, or O L Roberts, not a man William Henry Roberts. Skeptics and writers embrace the theory that Brushy Bill assumed an alias of Oliver Pleasant, Oliver, or O P Roberts. Brushy Bill listed some of his aliases. Oliver P Roberts was not one of them. Skeptics advance the theory that Brushy Bill was able to assume the alias of Oliver P Roberts after his death or departure. No facts support that assumption. Brushy Bill registered for the WWI draft when he lived in Little River County, AR, and said his name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 August 1878. Information in a Roberts family Bible gave a birth date of 26 August 1879 for Oliver P Roberts.
Brushy provided names of some close family members. No records has been found that proves his parents, J H Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn, his cousin Ollie Roberts, or his half-brother ever existed anywhere except in Brushy's imagination.
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Post by chivato88 on Jun 9, 2019 18:26:53 GMT -5
No records has been found that proves his parents, J H Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn, his cousin Ollie Roberts, or his half-brother ever existed anywhere except in Brushy's imagination.
Lol I was waiting for that exact reply!
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 9, 2019 19:53:53 GMT -5
No records has been found that proves his parents, J H Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn, his cousin Ollie Roberts, or his half-brother ever existed anywhere except in Brushy's imagination. Lol I was waiting for that exact reply! Facts don't change. |
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Post by bloodybeaver on Jun 10, 2019 11:28:06 GMT -5
Thank you all so much for your replies! Mind if I share this info on my podcast?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 10, 2019 12:08:07 GMT -5
Thank you all so much for your replies! Mind if I share this info on my podcast? Please share information in my posts. |
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Post by bloodybeaver on Jun 30, 2019 5:29:56 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 2:06:21 GMT -5
My first post in years, lol.
If doing family genealogy has taught me anything at all, typographical errors & phonetics are commonplace. Oliver,Olover, P, L, etc--- it's frustrating but it doesn't invalidate Brushy's claims anymore than it validates them. It's a mystery and the verdict is still out.
I've hit many "brick walls" in my own family genealogy because of same problems--- family members asserting someone was "one and the same" as another spelling, only to discover that long held notion was wrong, and that our real relative was somebody else entirely.
Another thing about genealogy is oftentimes the wrong people are asked to fill in the blanks about things they know nothing about. For instance, a great-relative of mine's wife was thought to have the maiden name of Westfall/Westphal ONLY BECAUSE her children, who never met their grandparents, listed the next door neighbors as her next-of-kin and their last name was Westfall/Westphal. Her real maiden name was listed as Hormel but also spelled as Horschel.
As you can see, it can be a major pain in the ass--- which brings me to the point, when it comes to Geneva Pittmon claiming Brushy and Ollie Roberts were one and the same on the basis of a family Bible. How would a woman born in 1918 know who was really her uncle, since both Ollie Roberts and Brushy were born long before? Only she ever said Brushy wasn't Billy The Kid, nobody else in the family ever personally challenged the story publicly.
Any claims that they didn't believe the story "behind closed doors" may as well be disregarded because, again, only she and she alone ever say that Ollie Roberts and Brushy were the same person--- nobody else ever publicly denied Brushy's claims that he adopted the identity of Ollie Roberts.
Which brings me, once again, to my own adventures in family genealogy. Wayne brings up an interesting theory that maybe there was two Ollie's as well as Brushy (unless I'm mistaken in what Wayne's suggested) and this reminds me of trying to connect the Virginia Moss family from Scotland (descendants of Robert the Bruce) to my Indiana Moss family because of family stories about being from royalty.
Lo and behold, after much painstaking effort and a lot of brick walls and confusion, I discovered there was back-to-back-to-back Charles', when so many people assumed that two of them were either "one and the same" or were uncle and nephew or unrelated (because of the seemingly unrelated censuses by location) but an old family book stated clearly that there was three distinct individuals and pinpointed where the "missing link" was buried. Sure enough, that one surviving piece of evidence wrapped up the mystery because the man was indeed buried where they said--- Charles Sr, Charles Jr, Charles III (as I call them) although each had different initials and lived in different states and different professions, and none of them were ever officially titled as Sr, Jr or III in official papers.
It could be there was two Ollie's, and one dies fairly young, and William Henry Roberts assumes the identity of his first or second cousin. Of course, some people will say such a theory only makes it harder to prove, but I disagree--- you know how many John H. Defibaugh's or Dephenbaugh's or Davenvrook's or Devenbeaux's or other variations of the name exists in the 1820-1860 censuses out of Pennsylvania? My 5th great grandfather may as well have fallen out of the sky because NOBODY has ever concretely proven who he actually was--- especially when a cousin of mine's DNA says "Irish" when that name is clearly German, which only begs the question, "Could it be John H. Defibaugh may have been an adopted son who came from an Irish family unknown to us?", the mind boggles at the possibilities.
The point is, genealogy isn't anywhere near as cut and dry as people make it out to be. There's NEVER been evidence of Billy The Kid ever being born in New York. There's hardly a scratch of evidence that he was ever in Indiana, it's just assumed he was. The only undisputed evidence shows that all trails lead to Texas. Everything else thought to be associated with The Kid has been proven to be either stories out of thin air or assumptions.
Its EASIER, in my estimation, to prove who Brushy Bill Roberts is rather than proving who Billy The Kid is because truth be told there's more information from Roberts than there ever was from Billy because let's be honest the bulk of his story is from the largely inaccurate Pat Garrett account that no credible historian believes to be a true biography of William Bonney alias Antrim.
What's intriguing about Brushy's claim is that the established myth of Billy The Kid was well known throughout the country--- his alleged origins, etc--- and yet Brushy threw all of that stuff out the window and said, "Forget that nonsense cus none of it's true." And sure enough, all of it, has proven to be hearsay and bunk.
We're no closer than we were the day The Kid allegedly died when it comes to knowing anything about the real Billy The Kid. It may prove more reliable to use "outside the box" thinking and creativity to connect the dots, than just assume "expert historian witness" testimony to trump everything. They're no more qualified than us amateurs when it concerns the genealogy of The Kid or his whereabouts throughout his known years of living.
Jesus bless you all 😊
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