|
Post by MissyS on Aug 9, 2019 13:54:33 GMT -5
I know this is a little crazy, but could there be any chance that Patrick was Billy's real first name all along and William was an alias name? If the St. Peters Church record is the real deal, then there would have to be an explanation for the name Patrick? I believe his school friends remembered he liked to be called Henry, maybe he used his middle name of Henry because for some reason he didn't like his first name of Patrick and later when he became an outlaw he used William as an alias? Why would an outlaw use his real first name? Could his real name have been Patrick Henry McCarty??
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on Aug 10, 2019 12:25:20 GMT -5
I wonder why those writers were so sure that the reason Billy started using the name Henry was because of his stepfather William Antrim? it makes sense, but why couldn't Billy's mother just call one William and the other Billy to keep from being confused? Thinking about Sheriff Whitehill's statement that early in Billy's career he changed his name to Billy Bonney in order to keep the stigma of disgrace from his family, and it was in this way he became known as Billy The Kid. It sounds like Billy Bonney was an alias if Sheriff Whitehill is to be believed? Since Billy referred to himself as W.H. Bonney and William H. Bonney it's believed that William was his real name, and it probably is, the possibility of it being Patrick could be a crazy idea?, I know there's no real proof to support that idea only a Church record that may be wrong, and may not have no connection to Billy at all, what makes me believe the Church baptism record could be Billy is the name Devine and it looks that there is a connection with the name Devine to a grave marker of Catherine's that was posted about earlier, because of that I'm trying to piece it together the name Patrick, but there's a lot of possibilities. It's a possibility also that Henry Cook may have confused New Orleans with New Mexico when he said Catherine went there?
|
|
|
Post by chivato88 on Aug 10, 2019 18:13:01 GMT -5
Wow, awesome article, I always knew he was younger than 21 when that liar Garrett said he shot him, I think he told people he was 21 so he would not look bad for shooting a kid!
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on Aug 10, 2019 18:51:16 GMT -5
That article is amazing and definately adds new pieces to the puzzle, Good Find! Wiesner's research lead him to believe Billy's Father's name was Michael McCarty and that he may have been born in Missouri, I assumed Billy was just having fun with the Census taker about being from Missouri. Maybe things can be pieced together from all this and Missouri may have some answers?
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 11, 2019 23:16:19 GMT -5
Wow, awesome article, I always knew he was younger than 21 when that liar Garrett said he shot him, I think he told people he was 21 so he would not look bad for shooting a kid! chivato88,
Weisner said his research leads him to believe BtK was 18 or 19 in July 1881.
Brushy said he was born 31 Dec 1859. (If so, he was 21 or 22 in 1881.)
Who do you believe?
|
|
|
Post by chivato88 on Aug 12, 2019 5:34:30 GMT -5
Wow, awesome article, I always knew he was younger than 21 when that liar Garrett said he shot him, I think he told people he was 21 so he would not look bad for shooting a kid! chivato88,
Weisner said his research leads him to believe BtK was 18 or 19 in July 1881.
Brushy said he was born 31 Dec 1859. (If so, he was 21 or 22 in 1881.)
Who do you believe?
Brushy may have lied about is date of birth to try to be accurate with historians and to prove he was the kid, Brushy might have been a bit younger than he told everyone.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 12, 2019 10:48:15 GMT -5
chivato88,
Weisner said his research leads him to believe BtK was 18 or 19 in July 1881.
Brushy said he was born 31 Dec 1859. (If so, he was 21 or 22 in 1881.)
Who do you believe?
Brushy may have lied about is date of birth to try to be accurate with historians and to prove he was the kid, Brushy might have been a bit younger than he told everyone. I agree. He lied about his age, for 1859 was the historically accepted birth year of BtK. Brushy claimed he was born in 1859 to validate his story. Brushy was a lot younger than he told everyone, as photos show. He was born in 1879.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 12, 2019 10:54:40 GMT -5
It would be helpful if we could see Weisner's actual research relating to BTK's claimed age but according to Nolan, who tried in vain to extract information from Weisner, the man kept all of the juiciest details in his head. Competent authors, researchers, and historians cite sources and records to substantiate their conclusions. That allows others to verify the validity of their work.
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on Aug 12, 2019 11:04:05 GMT -5
In a 1938 interview by Carlotta Baca Brent of Silver City, (she was a daughter of Saturnino Baca), she said when Billy was holed up in the shack in Stinking Springs, Pat Garrett was fixing coffee and Billy smelled it, and asked Garrett for some, and Garrett told him that if he wanted coffee he had to come get it, and Billy said to him Pat today's my birthday so can't you bring me some? Billy was arrested in Stinking Springs on December 23,1880. If Billy really said that is another question.
|
|
|
Post by chivato88 on Aug 12, 2019 11:24:44 GMT -5
He was born in 1879. [/quote]
I do not believe he was that young, Brushy looked older than 70 years old,I think he looked at least over 78-80
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 12, 2019 14:12:00 GMT -5
Would I be right in thinking that no record has actually been found of Catherine, William and Joseph (with the appropriate age ranges) living in the same household? That is correct.
These contemporary records link the birthplace of BtK to New York.
NM murder trial identified BtK as William Bonney alias Kid alias William Antrim 1873 marriage of William Antrim and Catherine McCarty was witnessed by Henry McCarty and Joseph McCarty. 1870 - 1872 land records of Catherine McCarty and William Antril in Sedgwick County, Kansas.
1880 census record of William Bonney in San Miguel County, NM. 1880 census record of Joseph Antrim, a miner, in Silverton, San Juan County, CO (born in New York, father b. NY, mother b.England) 1920 census record of Joseph Antrim in Denver, Denver County, CO (born in New York, father b. NY, mother b. NY) 1890 Veterans Schedule record of William H Antrim in Socorro County, NM (served only 4 months)
1900 census record of William Antrim in Mogollon, Socorro County, NM. (born in Indiana)
1915 pension application of William Antrim stated Catherine was married to McCarty who died in New York City; she was the mother of 2 sons.
There is probable, but not conclusive proof, that BtK is identified in the 1860 census of New York City, 1st ward, a member of the family of Patrick, Catherine, Bridget, and Henry McCarthy.
The following contemporary records link the birthplace of Brushy Bill to Buffalo Gap, Texas. None have been found.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 12, 2019 18:34:15 GMT -5
That's pretty much the same stuff as I have, along with a few additional items that need checking before I make them public. There's already too much erroneous stuff out there already and I'm not keen to add to that. I've noticed that some of the more venerated researchers/writers have made a few boo-boos but still seem to have made it into the accepted 'historical' record and I'm always wary when reputation and politics are given precedence over verifiable data, hence my starting to research from scratch. Admirable approach. Credible, verifiable records and sources leave no room for doubt.
Far too many unverified stories, assumptions, and dubious affidavits have been published supporting Brushy's incredible story. Chroniclers of Henry McCarty's life have also resorted to unverifiable claims.
Brushy's last wife, Lizzie, is buried in Oakwood Cemetery in Hamilton County. FAG #195433529 She might be buried in the same lot where Brushy is buried.
Lizzie married again after Brushy's death. The given name of her 4th and final husband, Long, is not known at this time.
|
|
|
Post by chivato88 on Aug 24, 2019 5:25:23 GMT -5
Brushy may have lied about is date of birth to try to be accurate with historians and to prove he was the kid, Brushy might have been a bit younger than he told everyone. I agree. He lied about his age, for 1859 was the historically accepted birth year of BtK. Brushy claimed he was born in 1859 to validate his story. Brushy was a lot younger than he told everyone, as photos show. He was born in 1879. Paco Anaya said: "We were the same age and naturally we talk much.The difference in our ages was about 5 months. I was born in January 1862 and Billy was born in May of that same year".
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 24, 2019 10:06:15 GMT -5
I agree. He lied about his age, for 1859 was the historically accepted birth year of BtK. Brushy claimed he was born in 1859 to validate his story. Brushy was a lot younger than he told everyone, as photos show. He was born in 1879. Paco Anaya said: "We were the same age and naturally we talk much.The difference in our ages was about 5 months. I was born in January 1862 and Billy was born in May of that same year". Brushy reported his name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born about 1878, when he registered for the WWI draft, and reported his birth year was about 1878 in the 1920 and 1930 census of Van Zandt County. Brushy's story lacks credibility, for no evidence has been found that indicates Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver Pleasant Roberts were 2 different men.
|
|
|
Post by chivato88 on Aug 24, 2019 13:25:50 GMT -5
[quote timestamp="1566642323" source="/post/5336/thread" Brushy reported his name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born about 1878, when he registered for the WWI draft, and reported his birth year was about 1878 in the 1920 and 1930 census of Van Zandt County. Brushy's story lacks credibility, for no evidence has been found that indicates Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver Pleasant Roberts were 2 different men. There s is no credible evidence either that Billy was shot by Garrett, just people said that he did ... there are many versions of that night and the day he escaped from Lincoln jail, that is why forums like this exist, and finaly I do believe O.P. Roberts and Brushy were 2 different people, your census record dont prove nothing that they were the same sorry,
|
|