|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 23, 2019 9:59:39 GMT -5
TTT, Your long post did not provide any information I did not already know and did not challenge my previous statements regarding Geneva Pittmon or the Draft registration. Go back and read it again if you still don't understand. You already knew all of that, and still believe there is a possibility that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid?
I guess faith is better than facts.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Mar 23, 2019 10:57:35 GMT -5
Of course I already knew all that and you should know that I knew that you knew that I knew. Sometimes "facts" are presumed to reveal a truth that is wrongly deduced. Sometimes "Faith" is well placed. So let's move on.
Tell me how Geneva Pittmon could have known for a fact that Brushy really was her uncle Oliver, even though he'd been pretending such since before she was born. And tell me how Brushy could have continued to pretend to be Oliver after the 1918 draft without showing up to register as he knew the law required "Oliver P. Roberts" to do. After all, those are the two most often repeated pieces of evidence against Brushy. I want to know how they hold up under common sense scrutiny and you haven't helped clear this up at all.
|
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 23, 2019 19:06:27 GMT -5
"Jim you continue to call him Oliver P Robert's even when his own family refer to him as O.L.Roberts or Oliver L. Roberts. Sounds like they knew something you don't. 2 different names 2 different people or 2 different alias. Still sounds like Billy to me."
lacowboy,
Brushy Bill described a fascinating life. There is an abundance of hearsay but little if any credible evidence to support his story.
This is a list of all the events in the life he described that have been confirmed.
Brushy’s description of events and characters in the Lincoln County war (very similar to events and characters in “The Sage of Billy the Kid”, published in 1926, which he could have read.)
Brushy said he married Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison, but he was still in Mexico when Mollie Brown married Oliver Roberts in Van Zandt County.
Brushy said he had a ranch in Arkansas, and Sevier County Warranty Deeds show that O. P. Roberts bought and sold 80 acres of land in Sevier County in 1918.
Sonnichsen’s closing sentence: “If Brushy Bill wasn’t Billy the Kid, who was he?”
The answer: Brushy Bill was Oliver P Roberts, as he himself said when he registered for the WWI draft, and as his relatives said.
|
|
|
|
Post by lacowboy on Mar 23, 2019 20:09:04 GMT -5
"Jim you continue to call him Oliver P Robert's even when his own family refer to him as O.L.Roberts or Oliver L. Roberts. Sounds like they knew something you don't. 2 different names 2 different people or 2 different alias. Still sounds like Billy to me." lacowboy, Brushy Bill described a fascinating life. There is an abundance of hearsay but little if any credible evidence to support his story. This is a list of all the events in the life he described that have been confirmed. Brushy’s description of events and characters in the Lincoln County war (very similar to events and characters in “The Sage of Billy the Kid”, published in 1926, which he could have read.) Brushy said he married Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison, but he was still in Mexico when Mollie Brown married Oliver Roberts in Van Zandt County. Brushy said he had a ranch in Arkansas, and Sevier County Warranty Deeds show that O. P. Roberts bought and sold 80 acres of land in Sevier County in 1918. Sonnichsen’s closing sentence: “If Brushy Bill wasn’t Billy the Kid, who was he?” The answer: Brushy Bill was Oliver P Roberts, as he himself said when he registered for the WWI draft, and as his relatives said. Jim ole boy as usual you've gone the long way around the barn to say the same old crap you've been saying for over 10 years that I know of. 1918 if any I'd at all was required Billy would have had Oliver's for some time,so selling land in o.p.'s wouldn't have be difficult to do. You also seem to think that it was imposible to travel when people did it all the time. Draft registration Billy just signed the name of his alias to not draw suspicion on himself. In your own post you acknowledge that his family called him Olie L.Roberts not Oliver P. Your dogs still don't hunt!!! |
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Mar 25, 2019 11:14:26 GMT -5
TTT,
You continue to ignore my request of explanation so I'm going to try one more time regarding the draft registration. Here's my premise. You tell me where I'm wrong and why.
1) Prior to September 12, 1918 the public was notified that all men between the ages of 18 and 45 were required to register of the draft on that date.
2) Brushy was going by the name Oliver Roberts. (not sure what middle name or initial he was using as he had already used "L" on other occasions)
3) "If" the real Oliver P. Roberts was not around at the time or had not shown up to register, the draft officials would have looked for him to enforce the requirement or possibly arrest him.
4) "If" Brushy was not the real Oliver P. Roberts then being delinquent with the draft requirement could have resulted in his questionable identity being discovered.
5) Brushy showed up and registered because he had to or risk being arrested.
Now before you write your response, please take note of the statements that begin with the word "if" and respond based on that provision. It doesn't matter how old William H. Roberts was at the time. The draft board wasn't looking for Wiliam H. Roberts as they did not even know he existed. Brushy registered as Oliver P. Roberts because that's who the draft board was requiring to show up and register. If he had not, they would have pursued him and Brushy's alias use of the name Oliver Roberts would have been discovered. Now tell me why that draft registration proves he really was Oliver P. Roberts. Maybe I'm just stupid or something but I don't see it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 25, 2019 16:40:45 GMT -5
lacowboy,
I agree with you that William Bonney was an alias. Henry McCarty was also known as William Antrim, William Bonney, and Billy the Kid.
Since you seem to be obsessed with Jim Johnson, the title of his book was “Billy the Kid, His Real Name Was….” I purchased a copy of his well researched book that exposes the numerous contradictions, omissions, and other erroneous information in Brushy Bill’s story.
Brushy never mentioned that he lived with Catherine McCarty, for the correct name of Billy the Kid’s mother was not discovered until 1953 after Brushy’s death. He mistakenly referred to her as Kathrine Ann (Kathleen) Bonney. (Both Upson and Burns had referred to her as Kathleen.)
Brushy never mentioned that William Antrim and Catherine McCarty were married 1 June 1873 in Santa Fe, NM, and that he was a witness, for that fact was not discovered until 1953, after Brushy’s death.
Brushy never mentioned living in Wichita, Kansas, about 1869, with Catherine McCarty, for that fact was not published until 1964, long after Brushy’s death.
It is an informative book. You should read it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 25, 2019 17:28:04 GMT -5
TTT, You continue to ignore my request of explanation so I'm going to try one more time regarding the draft registration. Here's my premise. You tell me where I'm wrong and why. 1) Prior to September 12, 1918 the public was notified that all men between the ages of 18 and 45 were required to register of the draft on that date. True statement.2) Brushy was going by the name Oliver Roberts. (not sure what middle name or initial he was using as he had already used "L" on other occasions) The first time there is a record of Brushy using the name O L Roberts is the marriage record of O L Roberts and Malinda E Allison in 1945 in Hamilton County. Oliver Pleasant Roberts is listed in various records as Olover Roberts, Oliver Roberts, Oliver P Roberts, O P Roberts, and Ollie Roberts Brushy's birth name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts as his WWI registration confirms.3) "If" the real Oliver P. Roberts was not around at the time or had not shown up to register, the draft officials would have looked for him to enforce the requirement or possibly arrest him. A hypothetical assumption, since Oliver Pleasnt Roberts registered for the draft.4) "If" Brushy was not the real Oliver P. Roberts then being delinquent with the draft requirement could have resulted in his questionable identity being discovered. A hypothetical assumption, since Oliver Pleasnt Roberts registered for the draft.
5) Brushy showed up and registered because he had to or risk being arrested. Oliver Pleasant Roberts registered for the draft in compliance with the lawNow before you write your response, please take note of the statements that begin with the word "if" and respond based on that provision. It doesn't matter how old William H. Roberts was at the time. The draft board wasn't looking for Wiliam H. Roberts as they did not even know he existed. Brushy registered as Oliver P. Roberts because that's who the draft board was requiring to show up and register. If he had not, they would have pursued him and Brushy's alias use of the name Oliver Roberts would have been discovered. Now tell me why that draft registration proves he really was Oliver P. Roberts. Maybe I'm just stupid or something but I don't see it. Some things are so obvious that no explanation is required. |
|
|
|
Post by lacowboy on Mar 25, 2019 19:41:41 GMT -5
lacowboy, I agree with you that William Bonney was an alias. Henry McCarty was also known as William Antrim, William Bonney, and Billy the Kid. Since you seem to be obsessed with Jim Johnson, the title of his book was “Billy the Kid, His Real Name Was….” I purchased a copy of his well researched book that exposes the numerous contradictions, omissions, and other erroneous information in Brushy Bill’s story. Brushy never mentioned that he lived with Catherine McCarty, for the correct name of Billy the Kid’s mother was not discovered until 1953 after Brushy’s death. He mistakenly referred to her as Kathrine Ann (Kathleen) Bonney. (Both Upson and Burns had referred to her as Kathleen.) Brushy never mentioned that William Antrim and Catherine McCarty were married 1 June 1873 in Santa Fe, NM, and that he was a witness, for that fact was not discovered until 1953, after Brushy’s death. Brushy never mentioned living in Wichita, Kansas, about 1869, with Catherine McCarty, for that fact was not published until 1964, long after Brushy’s death. It is an informative book. You should read it. Jim that's the same tired argument you had 10 years ago. If I don't agree with you I must not have read your lame book that you published yourself because noone else would touch it. Since you continue to deny who you are maybe your screen name should be changed to Texas lie teller. Brushy mush have known his aunt married Antrim because he calls he Mrs Antrim. You continue to go the long way around the barn as you always have to end up proving nothing at all. Even in your in your lame book you failed to live up to the hype in the title by not coming close to proving what Billy's real name was. Man I could never be so ashamed of myself that I would deny who I really am. Well maybe if I were you I could understand. By the way you never prove any of your points and never will. |
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 26, 2019 11:23:34 GMT -5
lacowboy,
Yes, I have posted facts more than once that indicate Brushy Bill was Oliver Pleasant Roberts.
This is a list of credible, verifiable evidence that has been posted suggesting that Brushy Bill might be Billy the Kid:
1.
2.
3.
“Since you continue to deny who you are maybe your screen name should be changed to Texas lie teller.”
Better that you try to prove that I am wrong rather than casting disparaging remarks. You erroneously believe that I am Jim, and that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. You know not of which you speak.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed individual.
Adios amigo,
TTT
|
|
|
|
Post by lacowboy on Mar 26, 2019 13:24:14 GMT -5
lacowboy, Yes, I have posted facts more than once that indicate Brushy Bill was Oliver Pleasant Roberts. This is a list of credible, verifiable evidence that has been posted suggesting that Brushy Bill might be Billy the Kid: 1. 2. 3. “Since you continue to deny who you are maybe your screen name should be changed to Texas lie teller.” Better that you try to prove that I am wrong rather than casting disparaging remarks. You erroneously believe that I am Jim, and that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. You know not of which you speak. I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed individual. Adios amigo, TTT The only facts you have provided is that someone using the name Oliver P. Roberts signed some papers after he was dead and buried in an unmarked grave in the middle of nowhere. Using your logic Oliver P. Robert's must still be alive Brushy was buried under the name of Olie L. Roberts. Even Oliver's half sister said Billy was not Oliver. Hiding under a dead man's name wasn't hard to do back then. Jim you just go ahead and continue to post the crap out of your lame dry written book. You have done some good research you just have no common sense whatsoever. |
|
|
|
Post by Hunter on May 20, 2019 21:08:44 GMT -5
James Henry Roberts U.S., Civil War Draft Registrations Records, 1863-1865 Name - James H Roberts Birth Year - abt 1832 Place of Birth - Kentucky Age on 1 July 1863 - 31 Race - White Marital Status - Married Residence Sub District, Kentucky Congressional District 9th Class 1  |
|
|
|
Post by Hunter on May 20, 2019 21:23:13 GMT -5
Questions -
The Roberts had moved to Buffalo Gap, Texas, where William Henry Roberts was born, why would James H Roberts be drafted from Kentucky?
Would he still be registered in Kentucky since Buffalo Gap, Texas was just a very small village at that time?
|
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 21, 2019 14:00:51 GMT -5
Questions - The Roberts had moved to Buffalo Gap, Texas, where William Henry Roberts was born, why would James H Roberts be drafted from Kentucky? Would he still be registered in Kentucky since Buffalo Gap, Texas was just a very small village at that time? Hunter, that is a good question.. Your discovery of the Civil War Draft Registration is also very interesting. The date on the page is 30 Oct 1863. Men living in the 9th congressional district of Kentucky registered. The 15 counties in that district were Bath, Montgomery, Lewis, Boyd, Greenup, Rowan, Lawrence, Marion, Magoffin, Morgan, Johnson, Floyd, Pike, Fleming, and Powell. Brushy said his father was born about 8 miles from Lexington, which is in Fayette County. Brushy said he was born in 1859 near Buffalo Gap. That is a geographic feature in the Callahan Divide, in Taylor County. Taylor County was created in 1858, but not organized until after the Civil War in 1878. The first census of Taylor County was conducted in 1880. From tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/hct02, "The earliest group of European settlers in Taylor County were buffalo hunters and bone gatherers, who arrived during the 1870s. Sam Gholson, William C. Dunn, and William E. Cureton were among the early settlers." No mention of a Roberts family.
Buffalo Gap, the geographic feature, had existed for centuries. Some websites indicate Buffalo Gap, the community, was established in 1858. That date is questionable if the first settlers arrived in the county in the 1870s. It is a fact that this part of Texas along the frontier was still subject to occasional Comanche Indian raiding parties as late as 1869.
I do not know the answer to your question, although it would seem to me that he had to be in Kentucky in 1863 for the registrar to know that he was 31 years old.
|
|
|
|
Post by lacowboy on May 21, 2019 14:38:48 GMT -5
Questions - The Roberts had moved to Buffalo Gap, Texas, where William Henry Roberts was born, why would James H Roberts be drafted from Kentucky? Would he still be registered in Kentucky since Buffalo Gap, Texas was just a very small village at that time? I'm curious why the Union would be drafting someone who was fighting for the confederacy. |
|
|
|
Post by lacowboy on May 21, 2019 14:46:15 GMT -5
Questions - The Roberts had moved to Buffalo Gap, Texas, where William Henry Roberts was born, why would James H Roberts be drafted from Kentucky? Would he still be registered in Kentucky since Buffalo Gap, Texas was just a very small village at that time? Hunter, that is a good question.. Your discovery of the Civil War Draft Registration is also very interesting. The date on the page is 30 Oct 1863. Men living in the 9th congressional district of Kentucky registered. The 15 counties in that district were Bath, Montgomery, Lewis, Boyd, Greenup, Rowan, Lawrence, Marion, Magoffin, Morgan, Johnson, Floyd, Pike, Fleming, and Powell. Brushy said his father was born about 8 miles from Lexington, which is in Fayette County. Brushy said he was born in 1859 near Buffalo Gap. That is a geographic feature in the Callahan Divide, in Taylor County. Taylor County was created in 1858, but not organized until after the Civil War in 1878. The first census of Taylor County was conducted in 1880. From tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/hct02, "The earliest group of European settlers in Taylor County were buffalo hunters and bone gatherers, who arrived during the 1870s. Sam Gholson, William C. Dunn, and William E. Cureton were among the early settlers." No mention of a Roberts family. Buffalo Gap, the geographic feature, had existed for centuries. Some websites indicate Buffalo Gap, the community, was established in 1858. That date is questionable if the first settlers arrived in the county in the 1870s. It is a fact that this part of Texas along the frontier was still subject to occasional Comanche Indian raiding parties as late as 1869. I do not know the answer to your question, although it would seem to me that he had to be in Kentucky in 1863 for the registrar to know that he was 31 years old.
Now there wouldn't have been a mention of a Robert's family in 1870 would there since they were all dead down there or moved to points north. |
|
