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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 22, 2018 13:32:32 GMT -5
I've added this question because I've been watching a series on the old west (on Amazon Prime) produced by Robert Redford. Now you'd think Redford would have the money to do some real research before the script for his series was written. You'd think he would want to be historically accurate, at least as much as possible. But last night they got around to telling the story of how Billy escaped from the Lincoln Courthouse. They showed he was in a cell, bars and all, in a one story building with Bell guarding him. Bell gives him his meal and the kid is having trouble eating because of his handcuffs. He asks Bell for help and Bell goes into the cell and removes the handcuffs so the Kid can eat. Billy then hits Bell and grabs Ollinger's shotgun he had left laying on the desk. Bell tries to shoot Billy who fires first and Bell lies dead inside the building. Ollinger hears the shot and comes running and Billy shoots him.
Now obviously they took some liberties in coming up with a version of how it happened that I had never seen eluded to anywhere else. So then I got to thinking. How can we know it didn't happen that way. Bell didn't tell anyone how it happened and neither did Ollinger. Meadows, I think it was, relayed a version he said was told to him by Billy himself. But we don't know for a fact he got that from Billy. Or do we?
Here's and important question. Do we know for sure that Billy went to the outhouse right before the escape? Did anyone see him going in and out of the building? Did he tell Meadows he went to the outhouse? Or is Garrett the one and only source for the outhouse trip being involved?
Let's discuss that.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 22, 2018 15:25:19 GMT -5
Wayne, Thats a very good question, I believe Billy told a pal after the escape, I dont recall who it was?, but the account was somewhat that he slipped the handcuffs off and hit Bell on the head, and during that struggle he grabbed Bell's gun from his holster and shot him as he fled down the stairs. I wonder if he did use Bell's own gun, then it would explain why Bell didn't shoot back at Billy as he ran down the stairs, there was no evidence he ever shot back. Then again there was a source, I don't remember where or who said it that Bell's gun was in his holster when he died. There are a lot of sources that say Billy got the gun from the outhouse, maybe they believe this to explain how Billy got ahead of Bell on top of the stairs, because it's believed Billy supposedly ran up the stairs ahead of Bell and turned and shot him, but wouldn't that have been hard with shackles on? I don't recall ever reading any eyewitnesses that said they saw Billy being led to and from the outhouse before the shooting, but a lot of writers had adopted that theory for some reason?
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 22, 2018 20:20:10 GMT -5
I believe it was John P. Meadows who claimed he had heard what happened directly from Billy's mouth. I can't seem to locate a transcript of the interview in which he told the story but I'm pretty sure it did not include a trip to the outhouse. I'm wondering if there was any other source that said there was a trip to the outhouse other than Garrett who, of course, was not present at the time. Because Bell's body was found at the bottom of the stairs, was the trip to the outhouse just an assumption by Garrett? My hypothesis would be that Bell tried to run down the stairs to get away from Billy and Garrett didn't want it to appear that Bell tried to run so he came up with the outhouse explanation.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 23, 2018 3:19:10 GMT -5
Wayne, I sent you a link in messages to a Eulogy I found by Meadows telling a little of what Billy said about killing Bell, there may be an interview that may reveal more?, I was not able to find that. I wonder if Godfrey Gauss had mentioned the outhouse in an interview? I could not find Gauss's account. There was also two different versions of why Garrett was away, one was that he went out of town to collect taxes, and the other was that he went to buy lumber to make Billy's gallows. Your hypothesis makes a lot of sense. I wonder if Garrett really believed Billy had gotten the gun from the outhouse then he probably would have had a suspicion of who left it also? Did he do any investigation into who left the gun if he was so sure? Seems like he would have questioned everyone in town later?
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Post by buckdanny on Sept 23, 2018 6:24:32 GMT -5
Wayne, I sent you a link in messages to a Eulogy I found by Meadows telling a little of what Billy said about killing Bell, there may be an interview that may reveal more?, I was not able to find that. I wonder if Godfrey Gauss had mentioned the outhouse in an interview? I could not find Gauss's account. There was also two different versions of why Garrett was away, one was that he went out of town to collect taxes, and the other was that he went to buy lumber to make Billy's gallows. Your hypothesis makes a lot of sense. I wonder if Garrett really believed Billy had gotten the gun from the outhouse then he probably would have had a suspicion of who left it also? Did he do any investigation into who left the gun if he was so sure? Seems like he would have questioned everyone in town later? There are people, including Steve Sederwall who beleive that Garret was away on purpose and that there was an agreement between Bily and Garret for the escape of jail. That would explain the gun, why Garret was away and whay he had later to find explanation for the Killing of Bell, that was probably not in the original plan. ...
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 23, 2018 9:46:19 GMT -5
Thanks Missy for finding that Meadows quote. I'll share it here for everyone:
“He must have had good stuff in him, for he was always an expert at whatever he tried to do. When he was rough, he was rough as men ever get to be…too awful rough at times, but everything in the country was rough back then. He done some things I can’t endorse, but Kid certainly had good feelings.” On the Kid's killing of Bell and Olinger: “Kid told me exactly how it was done. He said he was lying on the floor on his stomach, and shot Bell as he ran down the stairs. Kid said of this killing, ‘I did not want to kill Bell, but I had to do so in order to save my own life. It was a case of having to, not wanting to.’” As for Olinger, Meadows recalls the Kid saying: “I stuck the gun through the window and said, ‘Look up, old boy, and see what your getting,’ Bob looked up and I let him have both barrels right in the face and breast. I never felt so good in all my life as I did when I pulled the trigger and saw Olinger fall to the ground.” Meadows... “Olinger was mean to him. In talking about it with me, Kid said, ‘He used to work me up until I could hardly contain myself.’”
So indeed he did not mention the trip to the outhouse. I'm really thinking that was just an assumption Garrett made partially because it made Bell look less of a coward.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 23, 2018 18:59:04 GMT -5
Wayne, I sent you a link in messages to a Eulogy I found by Meadows telling a little of what Billy said about killing Bell, there may be an interview that may reveal more?, I was not able to find that. I wonder if Godfrey Gauss had mentioned the outhouse in an interview? I could not find Gauss's account. There was also two different versions of why Garrett was away, one was that he went out of town to collect taxes, and the other was that he went to buy lumber to make Billy's gallows. Your hypothesis makes a lot of sense. I wonder if Garrett really believed Billy had gotten the gun from the outhouse then he probably would have had a suspicion of who left it also? Did he do any investigation into who left the gun if he was so sure? Seems like he would have questioned everyone in town later? There are people, including Steve Sederwall who beleive that Garret was away on purpose and that there was an agreement between Bily and Garret for the escape of jail. That would explain the gun, why Garret was away and whay he had later to find explanation for the Killing of Bell, that was probably not in the original plan. ...
Welcome to the board buckdanny, I wondered about that myself, but considering there were other prisoners , I don't remember the number, but Olinger took them all across the street to eat when Billy shot Bell. I wonder would Garrett take the risk of allowing those prisoners a chance to escape as well? If there was a gun in the outhouse, then whoever left it there took a risk that another prisoner could find it before Billy, I imagine to hide a gun in a small space well enough that only Billy can find would be somewhat tricky?, but maybe it was hid under the floor boards? But i wonder if Garrett felt it possible that Billy got a gun from the outhouse then why didn't he have the guards secure it or guard it better?, by guarding I mean checking it before letting a prisoner in to use it somehow. He was after all guarding one of the most if not the most wanted prisoner in New Mexico.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 23, 2018 21:53:51 GMT -5
Very good point Missy. I don't think there was any gun in the outhouse. In fact I don't think the outhouse was a factor in the escape at all.
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Post by nmjames on Sept 23, 2018 23:46:49 GMT -5
Billy was chained to the floor, how did he get loose? It is said that Lucius Dills proved Bell still had his pistol on him. Tom Sullivan told me they knew where Bell's pistol was and wanted to check it against any bullet they might find in the wall.
Pat Garrett said Billy got the pistol that he shot Bell with out of the armory.
Then you have Sam Corbet and Jose Aguayo. It is said that Maurice Fulton, a researcher liked this version. Corbet told Billy when the gun would be placed in the outhouse. It is said that Aguayo knew who placed the pistol in the outhouse. Some feel it was him.
Would Billy tell Meadows about the gun being in the outhouse and who placed it there?
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 24, 2018 0:49:07 GMT -5
One version had Billy and Bell playing cards. Billy had pulled one hand free from the cuffs, a card was dropped on the floor and when Bell bent over to pick it up, Billy hit him and grabbed his gun. I know there was a report Bell's pistol was still in his holster when he died, but maybe Bell was holding a rifle as he guarded Billy. Isn't it possible Bell had a gun in the holster and another one in his hand?
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Post by buckdanny on Sept 24, 2018 6:29:04 GMT -5
I wonder would Garrett take the risk of allowing those prisoners a chance to escape as well? Hello Missys. If there was an agreement between Billy and Garret, probably it didn't include shooting anyone, and if Bell hadn't tried to escape and had come as planned in the gun's reserver to get locked there, I would think Billy would have gone discretely without killing anyone. Of course, that's just a theory.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 24, 2018 15:03:52 GMT -5
buckdanny, Thinking about that theory it may have worked like you said, but Garrett would have had to predict that Bell would not resist Billy's commands when he planned the agreement or he would have included him in the arrangement. It took Billy a long time afterward too some say an hour to file off one shackle, and get a pony or horse ready, so if Garrett wanted to help Billy escape it seems like he made some poor planning. If Gauss had not been around to toss him up a file and give him help it would have been even more troublesome for Billy. Garrett would of had to assume Gauss would be around at the time waiting for Billy's call for help, he must have clued him in, or told him to stick around close by? I wonder too if someone had left a gun in the outhouse then why didn't that person also leave a file with it? Wayne's theory that Bell may have had more than one weapon makes sense because hes guarding Billy alone, it does seem he would be well armed? Billy was certainly clever, he had a knack for getting his enemies, and guards to underestimate him by gaining his trust though. I wonder too whatever happened to the other prisoners, did they flee?, was there any mention of where they went?, with no guards or sheriff around the prisoners must have took advantage. I remember reading somewhere that Billy had told someone that Olinger went across the street to buy cigars. I wonder why Billy wasn't also eating if the others were? Could it be he was waiting for the card game to be over to eat? Theres so many questions and so many good theories.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 24, 2018 15:16:55 GMT -5
Hello, sometimes I remember stuff a little tiny wee bit wrong. Just a little bit. But I read a lot of stuff. But to answer this question, it has already been basically proven that there was a gun in the outhouse left by Sam Corbett and he said Billy never had to use it. I think there are a couple other things to support that besides Brushy but just to let you know for now, that outhouse thing has been debunked. But there was a gun in there.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 25, 2018 2:42:22 GMT -5
Hello, sometimes I remember stuff a little tiny wee bit wrong. Just a little bit. But I read a lot of stuff. But to answer this question, it has already been basically proven that there was a gun in the outhouse left by Sam Corbett and he said Billy never had to use it. I think there are a couple other things to support that besides Brushy but just to let you know for now, that outhouse thing has been debunked. But there was a gun in there. Wow!, I didn't know this, Thanks Mckinley, so Billy didn't need to get that gun in the outhouse after all. I did read an interview by Gauss, from 1890, and thanks to Texas Truth Teller that posted it on the "Shackles" thread, it was interesting to read his account.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 25, 2018 9:49:32 GMT -5
OK then. If Corbett can be taken at his word then there was a gun in the outhouse and Billy didn't use it. Wouldn't that mean we can assume there was no outhouse trip related to the escape? If Billy went to the outhouse right before the escape and there was a gun in there, then he would have used that one, I think.
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