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Post by buckdanny on Sept 13, 2018 7:11:18 GMT -5
Hello,
It is often said that Billy's favoryte guns were Colt SAA 1873, and that it is not likeky that the colt .41 double action found/placed in Pete's bedroom would so have been his gun.
On the other hand, it's also often said that when he was trapped somewhere, Billy escaped 'firing both hands'.
It sounds me a lot less efficient to use a single action gun in each hand than to use two hands on one single action and if Billy was using two guns at the same time, they must have been double action ones ... So I wonder if some precises researches have been made on Billy's weapons.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 14, 2018 18:11:17 GMT -5
He was ambidextrous and I'm not all that ambidextrous but if one could practice you could shoot one while cocking the hammer on the other and do that back and forth and then it would be more sufficient, even if you could cock them both at the same time and fire and then cock both again. You would want a gun whose ammunition was interchangeable with your rifle and it is fact that he has a .44 in the tintype, same as his rifle. It's been said that he could spin a gun on each finger in opposite directions, you wouldn't want to do that with a self cocker. The Cherokee Davis story explains how he got the self cocker but nobody is sure if it is true. I think Charlie Siringo said it was .41 caliber but I'm not sure but he talks about his gun being sold after the killing. There is an eyewitness account from people at Blazer's Mill who knew of the kid, I have a copy, I can give more details upon request, but it is real and I believe it, they said the kid was a fast shooter artist. And that does make sense according to another description that was given about him by someone else who said he could empty his gun by the time they got off one shot (I always apologize for not putting in the details in these post but I can look them up later). The Blazer Mill document says he had one gun that had the trigger removed and the other pistol had the trigger tied back In each case, someone could possibly fire one in each hand by thumbing the hammer. But that also sounds like a guy who might like a double cocker too. I have no idea.
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Post by buckdanny on Oct 21, 2018 7:01:45 GMT -5
He was ambidextrous and I'm not all that ambidextrous but if one could practice you could shoot one while cocking the hammer on the other and do that back and forth and then it would be more sufficient, even if you could cock them both at the same time and fire and then cock both again. You would want a gun whose ammunition was interchangeable with your rifle and it is fact that he has a .44 in the tintype, same as his rifle. It's been said that he could spin a gun on each finger in opposite directions, you wouldn't want to do that with a self cocker. The Cherokee Davis story explains how he got the self cocker but nobody is sure if it is true. I think Charlie Siringo said it was .41 caliber but I'm not sure but he talks about his gun being sold after the killing. There is an eyewitness account from people at Blazer's Mill who knew of the kid, I have a copy, I can give more details upon request, but it is real and I believe it, they said the kid was a fast shooter artist. And that does make sense according to another description that was given about him by someone else who said he could empty his gun by the time they got off one shot (I always apologize for not putting in the details in these post but I can look them up later). The Blazer Mill document says he had one gun that had the trigger removed and the other pistol had the trigger tied back In each case, someone could possibly fire one in each hand by thumbing the trigger. But that also sounds like a guy who might like a double cocker too. I have no idea. That's interesting. I've aso read he prefered Winchester then in second place the SAA Colt. What a weird choice then to chose only a double cocker if you take one in an hand and a knife in the other hand when you walk out at night …
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Post by mckinley412 on Nov 1, 2018 18:19:58 GMT -5
I see you answered in the 'my quote box'. But I see your comment. All I can say is that I have read what you have but they argued why Winchester was his preferred gun but they got the story wrong about which hand it was in and it wouldn't matter anyways but I could argue it both ways which was preferred for that situation .... meeting the governor...but environment dictates which weapon you use for what and basically there will be no clear cut answer because some will say he preferred left or right and then you must decide if you have a rifle in one hand and pistol in the other which will you put in the dominant hand and why because they are such different weapons. Of course I will make an argument for Brushy either way but the bad part is that both ways make perfect sense. But actually the Governor said Billy had a rifle in his left and a pistol in his right. True West Magazine got it backwards, and Bob Boze's painting too.
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Post by leeb on Nov 2, 2018 10:47:29 GMT -5
When thought the kid was left handed then so was brushy, when the kid changed to right handed then so did brushy. When said that the kid was ambidextrous believe it or not but so was brushy!
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Post by sushiadam on Nov 3, 2018 9:10:33 GMT -5
When thought the kid was left handed then so was brushy, when the kid changed to right handed then so did brushy. When said that the kid was ambidextrous believe it or not but so was brushy! Brushy never claimed to be left have he claimed to be ambidextrous at a time when most casual historians still thought the Kid was left handed, and stuck with his story. So there's that.
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Post by nmjames on Nov 3, 2018 12:05:48 GMT -5
sushiadam,
On page 6 of Alias Billy The Kid by Morrison and Sonnichsen, Brushy states, "I have been ambidextrous all my life, but I am left-handed naturally." Then on page 53, Brushy said. " I was left-handed and fast." Here he was talking about boxing.
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Post by mckinley412 on Nov 6, 2018 4:28:44 GMT -5
Yeah. Brushy said he preferred his left. Is anyone gonna say that because Billy wears a right handed holster that it means he is right handed? Does anyone know what percentage of people are left handed? And how rare left handed holsters were? So I guess it would make sense if a guy that prefers his left wears a right hand holster. Any questions?
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Post by nmjames on Nov 6, 2018 19:30:25 GMT -5
McKinley,
If you look on page 6 in Morrison's book, you will see where Brushy said he emptied his pistol patting his left hip and had to draw the right one. So I take it Brushy was saying he wore two scabbards with the butts toward the back. He also said no one could beat him to the draw with his left hand.
They did make left hand holsters because Charlie Bowdre was left handed and wore a left hand holster cross draw style. Some people even made their own holsters.
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Post by sushiadam on Nov 10, 2018 0:04:31 GMT -5
Before the 1950s there was the assumption was that the Kid was left handed due to the left handed holster. When somebody realized the image was reversed everyone decided he was really right handed. There's at least two interviews that claim he was ambidextrous, his school teacher from Silver City even said he could write equally well with both hands. Shooting a gun with both hands would come extremely easy for someone who could already write with either. Interestingly the only thing out of all those examples in the interview that required you to choose one and stick with it was boxing. Brushy/Billy may not even have known which hand was his true dominant one until then, if the boxing story even happened.
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Post by nmjames on Nov 10, 2018 22:54:20 GMT -5
sushiadam:
You state in your post of 22 hours ago: Interestingly the only thing out of all those examples in the interview that required "you" to choose one and stick with it was boxing. If the "YOU" is referring to me, then you are not correct. In Morrison's book, Brushy made several statements that would lead one to believe he was left handed or favored his left hand and again from my post on November 3rd, Brushy states, "I am left-handed naturally.
There are many statement about Billy the Kid that shows he used his right hand more and he wore his pistol on his right side.
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Post by sushiadam on Nov 11, 2018 22:32:18 GMT -5
sushiadam: You state in your post of 22 hours ago: Interestingly the only thing out of all those examples in the interview that required "you" to choose one and stick with it was boxing. If the "YOU" is referring to me, then you are not correct. In Morrison's book, Brushy made several statements that would lead one to believe he was left handed or favored his left hand and again from my post on November 3rd, Brushy states, "I am left-handed naturally. There are many statement about Billy the Kid that shows he used his right hand more and he wore his pistol on his right side. I mean the general "you", as in whoever is participating in said activities. Boxing would be the only one where someone would have to pick a stance and absolutely stick with it. You just weren't allowed to switch it up back then. As far as the holster goes even if they made a left handed version it still would've been comparatively rare, probably would've been easier to make do with whatever was available if you were able.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 2:30:54 GMT -5
I always find these arguments ridiculous, being a shooting man myself. There's guns I prefer, sure, but that doesn't mean I can't shoot just as well or close with a gun I don't really care about. It's like that scene in the movie QUIGLEY DOWN UNDER where Tom Selleck beats Alan Rickman in a duel and Rickman, dying, is perplexed how a rifleman could beat him in a pistol shoot out. Quigley's reply? "I said I didn't have much use for them, never said that I didn't know how to use them."
It reminds me, also, of "martial arts" guys who claim in a street fight, no rules, they could beat guys in the UFC... A lot of Bruce Lee fans use this logic... And I think of something Bas Rutten said once, "So you think I cannot fight unless I have rules?", if anything the lack of rules would only make a guy like Bas Rutten all the more dangerous.
Whether Billy or Brushy preferred a .44 or .41 or .38 is pretty immaterial when it's fairly obvious that regardless of pistol they could probably hit a moving target while on horseback or standing still.
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Post by kerry on Dec 16, 2019 22:21:26 GMT -5
Brushy broke cover to retrieve his rifle from Brady and got shot for it...the Winchester .44-40 was his most effective weapon - complemented when necessary by a short barrel Colt firing the cartridge...for the active shooter -ammunition could become scarce and .44-40 was the most available and fed both guns for greater efficiency - why carry around .45 or worse .41 long colt that had not long been in production? Brushy carried a .44 Colt with a short barrel and John Miller was known to have a .45 with a long barrel...the Thunderer or gunsmith's friend - would not have interested Brushy at all.
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Post by kerry on Jan 1, 2020 21:21:50 GMT -5
After the escape from the Lincoln County Court House - Pat Garrett reported the loss of two .44 pistols from the armoury...a few months later at the Maxwell house in Old Fort Sumner -Brushy Bill Roberts said he was armed with two pistols when he approached the Maxwell house - the same two .44-40 pistols BTK had taken from the Courthouse?? BTK already had a pistol with which he accidently killed Bell.. was that gun not suitable because it was a .45 ?
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