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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 18, 2018 22:57:20 GMT -5
I see. I was looking at his wife's birthday. Goes to show that he is a phony tho.
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Post by clydec on Sept 19, 2018 8:54:46 GMT -5
So, you no longer believe that Brushy is the kid mckinley412?
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 19, 2018 23:08:44 GMT -5
I will call him a phony until someone can prove otherwise. Until then I will present my findings. When debunking him I will resort to name-calling. Perhaps I will site the 1880 census many times. But I will try to see this debate from the other side. My opinion does not constitute as evidence and I will from now out be neutral and sometimes leaning from one side to another. I wish both sides luck. Brushy can't even prove who his parents were. Bad start for him.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 20, 2018 10:41:08 GMT -5
I'm not sure Brushy really knew who his parents were. If Catherine sort of stole him away from his real father when he was only 3 years old, or so, all he had to go on was what she told him. And she might well have had reason to make up stuff. Logically, one would think she'd just let him believe he was really her son, but maybe he had some recollection of being with his real parents/mother and she had to answer his questions about it. But that theory creates it own questions if we believe Brushy's story that he lived with his real father for awhile.
For every theory that answers a question it seems there's always another question(s) created by that theory. I can see how that fact raises great doubt about Brushy's claim of being Billy The Kid and believe me, I do struggle with it all sometimes. But in a way, that struggle is what keeps me interested. I imagine that is the case for many other members of our board as well.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 20, 2018 15:48:18 GMT -5
"I'm not sure Brushy really knew who his parents were. If Catherine sort of stole him away from his real father when he was only 3 years old, or so, all he had to go on was what she told him."
P. 32, "Alias Billy the Kid". "His real name was William Henry Roberts. At the age of three he changed it for what seemed adequate reason." Kinda hard to swallow that a 3 year old would change his name.
It is very easy to believe that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid if you only read his account of events in Lincoln County, and compare that to published historical information. It is impossible to believe he was Billy the Kid if you read the entire story and find that nothing else in his story can be verified. In addition, improbable events in his story are the norm: lived with Yaqui Indians for about 2 years; captained about 200 men in Mexico; rode with Pancho Villa and Carranza; Cattleman’s Association sent him to Argentina to break horses; knew Judge Parker, Belle Starr, and the Daltons; rounded up ponies in the Shetland Islands; deputy U S marshal (twice); member of Anti-Horse Thief Association; Texas Ranger; in Cuba with Teddy Roosevelt; shot branding iron out of thief’s hand.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 22, 2018 13:19:17 GMT -5
"Kinda hard to swallow that a 3 year old would change his name."
Obviously, Catherine changed it for him. Let's be reasonable here.
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Post by 1881- on Sept 28, 2018 8:07:37 GMT -5
There is a glaring discrepancy in Brushy's story about Oliver P. Roberts. He claims to have found Oliver's body around 1895. How can this be reconciled with the belief that the real Oliver P. Roberts was still around as late as 1909-1910? If I have the dates wrong I would appreciate a correction. Regardless, it's possible that while Brushy really was Billy the Kid, he was never in any way related to the Roberts family. Wayne this is a wonderful website. I watched the original airing of the Unsolved Mysteries episode on Brushy Bill. It remained in the back of my mind for many years. Then a couple of years ago I started thinking that with the development of the Internet there might be more information available. I eventually found your message board and now the LCW/BTK/Brushy Bill has become something of a part time hobby. Thank you.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 28, 2018 12:02:07 GMT -5
1881 Welcome to the discussion. There are facts, and there are stories. Brushy Bill said he had a cousin Ollie, born about 1867, left home about 1884, and was killed in the Indian Territory. Brushy recovered Ollie’s belongings and later returned them to the “survivors” in Sulphur Springs who mistook him for their son. Now for the facts. No record of Ollie Roberts has been found in the 1870 or 1880 census record. The parents of Oliver P Roberts were residents of Hopkins County (the county seat is Sulphur Springs) from before 1885 until after 1900. Oliver P Roberts, born August 1879, lived in the household of his parents, Henry O and Sarah E Roberts, in Hopkins County when the 1900 census was recorded. By 1909, the Roberts family lived in Van Zandt County, where Oliver Roberts married Anna Lee.
Another story: Brushy Bill said Katherine Bonney cared for him after the death of his mother. More facts: There is no credible record that the mother of Billy the Kid was ever known by the surname, “Bonney”. There is a marriage record of Catherine McCarty and William Antrim in Santa Fe, NM. Henry McCarty was one of the witnesses. Billy the Kid is identified as William Bonney and William Antrim in NM court records.
More facts: There is a paper trail of the life of Oliver P Roberts in 10 year intervals from his birth in Sebastian County, AR, in 1879, to Hopkins County, TX, in 1900, to Van Zandt County, TX, in 1910, to Little River Co, AR, in 1918 where he registered for the WWI draft, to 1920 in Van Zandt County where he was a widower after the death of Mollie Brown, to 1930 in Van Zandt County after he had married Loutecia Ballard, to 1940 where he and Loutecia were living in Gregg County, to 1945 where he married Malinda Elizabeth “Lizzie” Murrell Allison in Hamilton County.
Another story: Brushy Bill named several relatives: grandfather Ben Roberts, parents Mary Adeline Dunn and J H Roberts, half-brother James Roberts, step-mother Elizabeth Ferguson, cousin Ollie, cousin Martha Heath.
More facts: No record of Mary Adeline Dunn, J H Roberts, James Roberts, or Ollie has been found. Records prove Martha Roberts Heath was a half-sister of Oliver P Roberts. Elizabeth Ferguson was the mother of Oliver Roberts.
Billy the Kid (Henry McCarty/William Bonney/William Antrim) was not related to the Roberts family. Brushy Bill Roberts was an alias of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, the name and birth date he entered on his WWI registration card after the marriage of Oliver Roberts and Mollie Brown 21 August 1912 in Van Zandt County.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 28, 2018 19:54:40 GMT -5
1881, Welcome. Please make a self note to yourself that although Texas Truth Teller is good at researching things you should take his conclusions with a grain of salt, but it might not be as fun without him also. For example, we've already explained to him about fifty times that Brushy didn't say Catherine's last name was Bonney and in fact I can show you where he told both Henry J. Walker and Morrison that her last name was not Bonney.
But to answer your question, Brushy got dates wrong, his mind was slipping, on recorded audio you can here him say he was at the Chicago World's Fair or somewhere in 1904 and the interviewer corrects him and tells him the correct date and Brushy immediately agrees that it was 1893 or something. I could write a long thing about how this is easy to do even if you are old and sharp minded but also he might measure years by pretended ages etc. and mess his math up but the way I figure it, that would still mean he probably was there, but his mind was obviously going a little bit.
But back to TTT, there are records of Mary Adeline Dunn's and J H Roberts, and James Roberts (we can't prove if any of them are related to Brushy tho but there are records of people with these names) and I recently debunked the one Mary Adeline Roberts who was married to JH Roberts and that is only if Brushy's authors copied down everything exactly as he said which we know they didn't but they didn't make mistakes on purpose and they admit that his story was hard to piece together because he was hard to understand and he bounced back and forth.
Another thing TTT said was that Billy was not related to the Roberts family but the truth is no one knows what families he was related to, except we know Antrim was his step dad and he was probably related to Catherine although the Antrim family says Billy was illegitimate. ALSO, Brushy never said that Martha Heath was NOT a sister of Oliver Roberts, so that should be a point for Brushy. ---Brushy just said he wasn't Oliver Roberts.
Good luck with your research and let me know if you have ANY questions at all.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 28, 2018 21:14:13 GMT -5
"For example, we've already explained to him about fifty times that Brushy didn't say Catherine's last name was Bonney and in fact I can show you where he told both Henry J. Walker and Morrison that her last name was not Bonney."
mckinney412, I sure wish you would tell me the page number in "Alias Billy the Kid" where Brushy told Morrison that her last name was not Bonney.
This story is found on page 33:
"Consequently, when Mrs. Roberts died, in 1862, while her husband was gone to the wars, her kinfolks came to the baby's rescue. Mrs. Roberts' half-sister, Kathrine Ann (Kathleen) Bonney came down from the Indian Territory and took him away with her, being careful to avoid leaving her address lest the father follow and claim his child."
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 28, 2018 21:48:34 GMT -5
For the 48th time... It isn't in the book. You are confusing what authors say and what Brushy says.. He tells Henry J. Walker in the book Jesse James the Outlaw that he got the name from Jesse and Belle Starr. There is a copy of a letter of him telling Morrison but I don't have it but other people do and it isn't available for public but Morrison talks about it in one of his letters which I can't upload here and I really don't feel like reading through them but I have it in my notes when I was recording notes for 8 hours straight as I went through archives at the Branson Library in Las Cruces and if you join the Brushy group on facebook you can click on photos and I have uploaded the most interesting letters there out of the 16 hours of scanning letters from various place that I have done. There is also a Sonnichsen Collection at El Paso University you might be able to visit, I haven't looked at those, Las Cruces isn't very far away from there where you can go into the Branson Library or you can order stuffs online for a price..
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Post by 1881- on Sept 29, 2018 4:47:05 GMT -5
1881 Welcome to the discussion. There are facts, and there are stories. TTT, Thank you. There are facts and there are also interpretations of facts. I've noticed that you habitually present a select series of facts and then insist that there is no interpretation or conclusion other than the one you've reached. I was wondering if you are or have been affiliated with the legal profession because that's exactly what lawyers do. They present a select series of facts and then attempt to persuade judge and jury to interpret those facts in a manner favorable to their cause. Unfortunately 50% of all lawyers are on the wrong side of truth. You could be right about Brushy not being BTK, but I see no irrefutable proof for either side of the debate.
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Post by 1881- on Sept 29, 2018 5:46:10 GMT -5
1881, Welcome. Please make a self note to yourself that although Texas Truth Teller is good at researching things you should take his conclusions with a grain of salt, but it might not be as fun without him also. But to answer your question, Brushy got dates wrong, his mind was slipping, on recorded audio you can here him say he was at the Chicago World's Fair or somewhere in 1904 and the interviewer corrects him and tells him the correct date and Brushy immediately agrees that it was 1893 or something. I could write a long thing about how this is easy to do even if you are old and sharp minded but also he might measure years by pretended ages etc. and mess his math up but the way I figure it, that would still mean he probably was there, but his mind was obviously going a little bit. But back to TTT, there are records of Mary Adeline Dunn's and J H Roberts, and James Roberts (we can't prove if any of them are related to Brushy tho but there are records of people with these names) and I recently debunked the one Mary Adeline Roberts who was married to JH Roberts and that is only if Brushy's authors copied down everything exactly as he said which we know they didn't but they didn't make mistakes on purpose and they admit that his story was hard to piece together because he was hard to understand and he bounced back and forth. Another thing TTT said was that Billy was not related to the Roberts family but the truth is no one knows what families he was related to, except we know Antrim was his step dad and he was probably related to Catherine although the Antrim family says Billy was illegitimate. ALSO, Brushy never said that Martha Heath was NOT a sister of Oliver Roberts, so that should be a point for Brushy. ---Brushy just said he wasn't Oliver Roberts. Good luck with your research and let me know if you have ANY questions at all. mckinley412, Thank you.
I appreciate your advice. I've been reading the message board for a number months now, so I've become acquainted with the different personalities here.
Regarding Brushy's claim to finding the body of Ollie, you're saying then that he might have gotten that year wrong also and that it was closer to 1910? If that's the case then doesn't it mean he was using the name Oliver P. Roberts while the real Ollie was still alive? This would have been at the time he said he was with the Buffalo Soldiers and later the Rough Riders.
I'm not sure what you mean about there being a Mary Adeline Dunn, a J H Roberts, and a James Roberts, but that you "recently debunked the one Mary Adeline Roberts who was married to JH Roberts". I must have missed that post. Are you saying there was never a Mary Adeline Roberts who was married to J H Roberts, but that there was a Mary Adeline Roberts who was married to James Roberts?
I agree that even the genealogy of the historically accepted Billy the Kid is sketchy at best. Part of my rationale for suggesting that Brushy was Billy but was never related to the Roberts family, yet still claimed to Morrison that he was, is the possibility that he was still embarrassed at being illegitimate. Plus he had been claiming to be a member of the Roberts family for so long that he might have been too embarrassed to admit that he had never been related to them, or worried about the backlash from the Roberts family, or was just trying to spare them from embarrassment.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 29, 2018 10:19:36 GMT -5
1881 Welcome to the discussion. There are facts, and there are stories. TTT, Thank you. There are facts and there are also interpretations of facts. I've noticed that you habitually present a select series of facts and then insist that there is no interpretation or conclusion other than the one you've reached. I was wondering if you are or have been affiliated with the legal profession because that's exactly what lawyers do. They present a select series of facts and then attempt to persuade judge and jury to interpret those facts in a manner favorable to their cause. Unfortunately 50% of all lawyers are on the wrong side of truth. You could be right about Brushy not being BTK, but I see no irrefutable proof for either side of the debate.188
1881, Thanks for the critique. You are observant. Service on civil juries is the closest I have come to the legal profession, where the preponderance of the evidence presented is the basis for the decision reached by the jury. Lawyers present evidence, some of which may be facts and some may be interpretation of facts. I am an engineer with a healthy regard for facts and history. You are correct that there can be different interpretations and conclusions based on evidence presented.
I agree there is no irrefutable proof that Billy the Kid was killed. No death certificate; no death photograph. There is a preponderance of evidence that Brushy Bill was not Billy the Kid. There is no credible evidence that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid other than Brushy's story as recorded by William V. Morrison.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 29, 2018 10:34:40 GMT -5
For the 48th time... It isn't in the book. You are confusing what authors say and what Brushy says.. He tells Henry J. Walker in the book Jesse James the Outlaw that he got the name from Jesse and Belle Starr. There is a copy of a letter of him telling Morrison but I don't have it but other people do and it isn't available for public but Morrison talks about it in one of his letters which I can't upload here and I really don't feel like reading through them but I have it in my notes when I was recording notes for 8 hours straight as I went through archives at the Branson Library in Las Cruces and if you join the Brushy group on facebook you can click on photos and I have uploaded the most interesting letters there out of the 16 hours of scanning letters from various place that I have done. There is also a Sonnichsen Collection at El Paso University you might be able to visit, I haven't looked at those, Las Cruces isn't very far away from there where you can go into the Branson Library or you can order stuffs online for a price.. mckinley412, Not everything in Henry J Walker's book is credible: "( from pages 31-34 ):
" . . . What the law officers including the Pinkertons did not know, was that the James boys had a cousin named Jesse James who drifted in and out of Clay County, Missouri, but seldom showed up at the James home. He looked very much like Jesse, his cousin, was about the same size and height, and had an injured index finger and a scar on his left cheek. However, this cousin had blue eyes, and the other Jesse James' eyes were dark brown. As a matter of fact, although both Jesse and Frank called him a cousin, this blue-eyed Jesse James was a cousin of Frank not Jesse. He, the cousin, told Mr. Buell in the late 1870s that he was born March 8, 1848. Despite Frank James' refinement and cunning, he was willing to let this cousin Jesse be boss, and was contented to follow and play second fiddle. This irritated Zerelda Samuel. She wanted to be boss, and until this conceited cousin came on the scene, she had held the whip over her sons, Frank and Jesse. She told her nephew that she had the say-so around there, but he had different ideas. When he came to Clay County he stayed at various homes in the neighborhood, and one of his favorite stopping places was the farm home of Argile Taylor who lived on a farm four miles south of Smithville, Missouri. This cousin Jesse met Frank and Jesse James and others in Smithville and they rode from there to their planned destination. This cousin Jesse was very polite, went well dressed at all times, kept his fine boots neatly polished, and wore kid gloves for two reasons: for neatness, and also to hide his injured finger. He usually had a silk handkerchief in his lapel pocket. In season he wore a Prince Albert coat, and always kept his hair and beard neatly trimmed. His favorite style of hair-cut was one that his hair came down on each side of his head, covering the top third of his unusually large ears. He was of English and Irish extraction, belonged to several of the Protestant lodges, secret and otherwise. He was widely known wherever he went, but not always known by one name, as he had several aliases: Jim Wilson, Dr. Bedicheck, Jesse James, and other names. This cousin Jesse of Frank's was christened Jesse Woodson; and when they rode with Quantrill the boys gave the dark-eyed half-brother of Frank the nickname of Dingus, and so the real Jesse Woodson James was known to most of Quantrill's group as Jesse Woodson, and the dark eyed Jesse was known as 'Jesse Dingus.' Jesse Dingus was greatly underestimated by the Clay County, Missouri natives, as well as the lawmen of those days. In addition to his other accomplishments, Jesse [Dingus] was a superb horseman and could handle the wildest and highest spirited horse with ease. And he was expert at handling firearms. He was more quiet and reserved than his half-brother Frank, and absolutely fearless in nature. It has been said that Jesse James [that is, Jesse "Dingus" James] led a charmed life. He had the instincts of a deer, and seemed to possess a sixth sense in detecting danger and getting away from it. He did not have the fiery temper of the red-headed, blue-eyed cousin Jesse Woodson, but he was very deternined in his ways when he had made up his mind. At the close of the Civil War, all three of these men - Jesse and Frank James, and Jesse Woodson - were hunted mercilessly by the law. They had their hide-outs in various places, and were kept constantly on the alert for danger. The most extensive and ceaseless search made for them was in Missouri; but they had many friends who were always ready to warn them if the hunt was hot.""
Walker appears to be quoting one of Dalton's tall tales. Neither J. Frank Dalton or Brushy Bill ever won the George Washington Cherry Tree award for truthfulness.
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