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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 6, 2018 1:28:07 GMT -5
Why would Brushy report to the 1910 census takers that his parents were born in Kentucky, then change that on subsequent census reports only to make that claim again in his interviews with Morrison almost 40 years later?
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Post by clydec on Sept 6, 2018 9:31:58 GMT -5
He screwed up on that one Wayne, realized the mistake and did not make it again after that.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 6, 2018 10:27:31 GMT -5
He screwed up on that one Wayne, realized the mistake and did not make it again after that. I agree that the 1910 census information about Oliver P. Roberts is screwed up. Attributing the misinformation to Brushy is very questionable.
The 1910 census does show that the parents of Oliver Roberts, born ca. 1880, were both born in Kentucky. Anna was Oliver's wife. Several assumptions must be made to Brushy responsible for the incorrect information. 1. Was this Brushy? Brushy did not tell Morrison that he had been known as Oliver Roberts after 1909.
2. Was this Brushy? Morrison recorded that Brushy identified his wives as Mollie Brown, Lutecia Ballard, and Lizzie Allison. Anna Lee was not listed as one of his wives. 3. Was Brushy home when the enumerator came? If Oliver, a farmer, was not in the house when the enumerator came, Anna would have been the informant. Did she know where his parents were born? 4. Did the enumerator record the birthplace of Oliver's parents accurately in his notes when he was visiting in the Roberts' household? 5. Did the enumerator correctly transcribe information from his notes to the census page?
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 7, 2018 1:35:30 GMT -5
TTT,
Do you really think that the 1910 info was just a mistake that Brushy just happened to repeat again almost 40 years later when he agreed to tell the truth? Can we say "grasping at straws"?
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 7, 2018 21:03:52 GMT -5
He said he was born in Texas on the 1940 census
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Post by jgaines on Sept 8, 2018 0:10:24 GMT -5
Wait, now the truth teller is suggesting that the all knowing census records may be in error ? Now that's funny. So why was Ollie, "the farmer" full of bullet holes ?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 8, 2018 14:17:43 GMT -5
Wait, now the truth teller is suggesting that the all knowing census records may be in error ? Now that's funny. So why was Ollie, "the farmer" full of bullet holes ? jgaines, There is no question that errors are found in census records. That is a fact easily demonstrated. Census records show the birth place of Oliver P Roberts as Arkansas in the 1880 and 1900 census, and as Texas in the 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940. Census records show his approximate birth year as 1879, 1879, 1880, 1879, 1878, and 1870 in the 1880, 1900, 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940 census records, respectively. The 1880, 1900, 1910, and 1920 census records show Texas as the birthplace of Henry Oliver Roberts. Census records of Oliver P Roberts show that Texas was the birthplace of his father, Henry Oliver Roberts, in the 1880, 1900, 1920, and 1930 records, but the 1910 census records shows Kentucky.
No credible evidence has been found that the scars on Brushy Bill's body were caused by bullets. It is true that Brushy Bill said the scars were the result of bullet wounds, but that doesn't make it so. Could Morrison tell the difference between a wound caused by a bullet and something else?
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 9, 2018 18:02:07 GMT -5
Truth for the Truthteller
There are errors that can be easily explained and those that can not be explained at all. The one's that can not be explained are either falsely assumed to be errors when they actually are correct, or they are straight out lies. Let's examine the ones you listed:
1. Birthplace: 1880 and 1900 show Arkansas because that is where the real Oliver P. was born. Census reports from 1910 -1940 show Texas because that is where William H. Roberts, "Brushy", was born. If the real Oliver P. was the source on all those reports then he flat out lied about his birthplace from 1910 through to 1940 and I can not imagine any reason he would do that. That's just further evidence that Brushy did indeed step into Oliver P's identity in 1910.
2. Birth Year: 1879 was likely the correct year for the real Oliver P. since the source for those first couple reports was likely Oliver's parents. Then from 1900 - 1940 the source was likely first the real Oliver P and then Brushy and neither one of them remembered the correct year. The 1870 date reported in 1940 was because Brushy realized that Oliver L. who he was pretending to be was actually born earlier. Even so, he wasn't sure the exact year. Eventually he determined it was 1868 and that is what went on his death certificate and original tombstone. But none of that has anything to do with the real 1859 birthdate of William H. Roberts.
3. Birthplace of Henry Oliver Roberts: The census reports you cite showing he was born in Texas are because he "was" born in Texas. Those are not mistakes.
4. Birthplace of Brushy's father: Those census records you cite do not say that Brushy's father was Henry Oliver Roberts, but they obviously do refer to Henry who actually was born in Texas. Unlike the other data you listed, the 1910 report of parents born in Kentucky can not be explained as a mistake by the census taker or by the source. No one is going to "mistake" the word "Arkansas" for the word "Kentucky" and no one who knows their parents were born in Arkansas is going to "accidentally" say it was Kentucky.
Now tell me how the 1910 census record making such a glaring change as to report Brushy's parents as both being born in Kentucky comes under the category of a "mistake". I respect that anyone on this board would have enough intelligence to understand that this was not an error made by the census taker. This was "reported" to the census taker by whomever was providing the info. Either they lied about it, or those parents literally were born in Kentucky.
Yet you continue to suggest it was just some kind of "mistake". I can hardly fathom how you would really believe that.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 11, 2018 10:20:22 GMT -5
"Now tell me how the 1910 census record making such a glaring change as to report Brushy's parents as both being born in Kentucky comes under the category of a "mistake". I respect that anyone on this board would have enough intelligence to understand that this was not an error made by the census taker. This was "reported" to the census taker by whomever was providing the info. Either they lied about it, or those parents literally were born in Kentucky.
Yet you continue to suggest it was just some kind of "mistake". I can hardly fathom how you would really believe that."
Wayne, The 1910 census record that indicated both parents of Oliver Roberts were born in Kentucky is nothing to get excited about.
Brushy went back to Mexico about 1907, and said the Mexican revolution came along in 1910 (an undisputed fact). He said he joined with Carranza’s men, and later Pancho Villa. He was captain of 106 men. He left Mexico in 1914.
The first indication that Brushy was in Van Zandt County was when he said he met and married Mollie Brown in 1912 (note that Brushy said he left Mexico in 1914, coming across the border at Brownsville). So there is no evidence that Brushy was in Van Zandt County on the 2nd or 3rd day of May, 1910, when the census was recorded.
Brushy did not include Anna Lee as one of his wives. The 1910 census record is a record of Oliver Roberts and Anna Lee, not Brushy Bill. Oliver and Anna were married in 1909 while Brushy Bill claimed he was in Mexico. Brushy may have gotten the years wrong, but there is no doubt that Pancho Villa and Carranza were participants in the 1910 Mexican revolution.
The Kentucky birthplace of Oliver P Roberts’ parents is wrong. The respondant lied, did not know where they were born, or the enumerator incorrectly recorded the information.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 11, 2018 22:04:57 GMT -5
I believe Brushy was in Van Zandt County in 1910. The business about Mexico and Poncho Villa may be a case of incorrect memory on the part of Brushy or it may have been fiction. I'm not going to go back and look up the details on it right now but tracing Brushy's location backwards indicates he was in Van Zandt then. I'm not sure what I think about Anna Lee, but I suspect she married the real Oliver P. Roberts and he ran off and Brushy either posed as him to help her get a divorce from him or Brushy and Oliver P. were both in Van Zandt at the same time for awhile. I do believe that much of Brushy's story is fiction and I can not prove which part and I certainly can't fill in all the blanks.
That said, the question that started this thread is still unanswered. Even if we were to accept that Brushy himself was not interviewed by that 1910 census taker, someone told that census taker that Oliver's parents were both born in Kentucky. Oliver P. Roberts' parents were not born in Kentucky. Almost 40 years later, Brushy told Morrison his real parents were both from Kentucky. In my mind, that can not be a coincidence. So, explain why someone, the real Oliver P. Roberts, Anna Lee, Brushy, a next door neighbor, someone, or anyone would have come up with Kentucky when the real answer was Arkansas. Surely you don't really think the census taker just wrote it down wrong?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 12, 2018 18:51:12 GMT -5
Wayne, In response to your request for an explanation of the misinformation found in the 1910 census, this is an easily understood step by step procedure that could account for the erroneous Kentucky birth place information. Each enumerators was assigned a specific area to canvas. The enumerator visited each household. The Roberts head of household was a farmer. Anna had no occupation. Anna was home alone when the enumerator arrived. Anna said she was born in Texas. (correct) Anna said her father was born in Louisiana. (correct) Anna said her mother was born in Texas. (correct) Anna said her husband was born in Texas. (wrong) Anna said her father-in-law was born in Kentucky. (wrong) Anna said her mother-in-law was born in Kentucky. (wrong)
Is there a coherent and rational explanation of the WWI registration card of Oliver Pleasant Roberts that has the same birth date as the son of Henry Oliver Roberts? Oliver and his wife, and Henry O. Roberts and his wife, were residents of Van Zandt County in 1910. Oliver and his wife, and Henry O. Roberts and his wife moved from Van Zandt County to Little River County, AR, before 1920. Oliver and his wife, and Henry O. Roberts and his wife, were residents of Arkinda, Arkansas. There is no evidence that Oliver P. Roberts died, of departed for parts unknown, about 1910. There is no evidence that Oliver P. Roberts and Brushy Bill Roberts were two different men.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 13, 2018 16:58:22 GMT -5
Wayne, From "Alias Billy the Kid".
“In 1912 I met Mollie Brown of Coleman, Texas, and we were married.
Mary (Mollie) lived with her brother, William B Brown, and younger siblings in the 1910 census of Coleman County after her mother died and before she married Brushy in 1912. The family of John Martin Brown, including Mary, lived in Coleman County in 1900. The family of John M Brown, including the 3 month old Mary, lived in Franklin County, Texas, 1n 1880. The family was still living in Franklin County in 1892 when Perry Thompson Brown, one of the younger boys was born.
"She was a member of the old Brown family, of Brown County, Texas?” Just another one of Brushy’s many skirmishes with the truth.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 13, 2018 23:26:50 GMT -5
"The Roberts head of household was a farmer. Anna had no occupation. Anna was home alone when the enumerator arrived. Anna said she was born in Texas. (correct) Anna said her father was born in Louisiana. (correct) Anna said her mother was born in Texas. (correct) Anna said her husband was born in Texas. (wrong) Anna said her father-in-law was born in Kentucky. (wrong) Anna said her mother-in-law was born in Kentucky. (wrong)"
Anna didn't give the wrong state for her husband's birth. William Henry Roberts was the real name of the husband and he "was" born in Texas.
You still didn't answer the question. If the info given on the husband's birth state and the in-laws' birth states was just wrong, then why would Brushy come up with the same information almost 40 years later. You are suggesting Anna was so stupid she thought Arkansas was Texas in one moment and then in the next she thought Arkansas and Texas were both Kentucky. You have not answered the question and attempting to change the subject is not going to work.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 18, 2018 17:50:35 GMT -5
TTT, Also 1873 is one of his birth years in 1930 census. I always forget all his dates when I give them to people but I think I got em remembered now.
Excellent point, Wayne. He also said Texas in the 30 and 40 census.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 18, 2018 21:08:53 GMT -5
TTT, Also 1873 is one of his birth years in 1930 census. I always forget all his dates when I give them to people but I think I got em remembered now.
Excellent point, Wayne. He also said Texas in the 30 and 40 census.
mckinley412, Take another look at the 1930 census. Oliver's age is reported as 52. That indicates a birth year of 1878. The 1940 census shows his age as 70, for a birth year of 1870. Lutecia was his wife each time. She aged 8 years, while Brushy age 18 years in the 10 year period between the 1930 and 1940 census.
You are correct. The birthplace of Oliver Roberts is reported as Texas in the 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940. Usually, the same information found in multiple census records is credible.
The birthplace of Oliver's father is reported as Texas in the 1920 and 1930 records, and the birthplace of Oliver's mother is reported as Arkansas in the 1920 and 1930 records. That just happens to be the birthplace of Oliver P. Roberts parents. Brushy reported his birth date as August 26. That just happens to be the birth date of Oliver P. Roberts.
The theory that Brushy Bill became Oliver P Roberts is a fantasy. In the fantasy, Brushy knew Oliver's birth day, and the birthplace of both of Oliver's parents. There is no rational explanation for Brushy's acquisition of that information.
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