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Post by MissyS on Jun 9, 2018 13:40:09 GMT -5
I ran across this information and I dont know if it's true or a different family? It seems a letter may have been given from an official of Saint Peters Church some time ago stating it had in their possession records of (Billy The Kid) Henry McCarty is says the letter from Rev. James B. Roberts, Church of St. Peter, New York City, to Jack DeMattos, March 24, 1979,: Henry McCarty, son of Patrick McCarty and Catherine Devine McCarty, born 17 September 1859, was baptized 28 September 1859 by Rev. J. Conron, the sponsors being Thomas Cooney and Mary Clark. Also I found it says his parents Patrick McCarty and Catherine Devine were married on June 19, 1851 at the Church of Saint Peter. I found this on Wikipedia and pulling up the Church of Saint Peter and reading about the notable parishioners. scrolling further down on the page. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter_Catholic_Church_(Manhattan)
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 9, 2018 22:48:06 GMT -5
This is probably the source of the information on wikipedia.
“The Real West”, January 1980, pp. 26 - 28. The Search fo Billy the Kid’s Roots is Over, by Jack DeMattos Extract #1 “March 24, 1979 Dear Mr. DeMattos Replying to your recent request for transcriptions from our records, I give you the following: Patrick McCarthy (with “H”), son of Patrick McCarty and Catherine Devine McCarty, born 17 September 1859, was baptized 28 September 1859 by Rev. J. Conron, the sponsors being Thomas Cooney and Mary Clark Sincerely yours, Rev. James B. Roberts Church of St. Peter 16 Barclay Street New York, NY 10007”
Extract #2 “Noted Billy the Kid scholar Phil Rasch provided me with copies of pages from the Manhattan city directories between 1857 and 1868. Each of these directories listed dozens of people named McCarthy and McCarty - and , more often than not, the spellings of the names were confused from year to year; in other words, a person that was listed one year as “McCarthy” was listed in a subsequent directory as “McCarty”, and vice versa. However, in the entire list of McCarthy/McCarty names, there was only one lady named Catherine, (the accepted first name of Billy the Kid’s mother), who was widowed at exactly the right time period.”
Extract #3 “The 1858-59 New York Directory (p. 499) listed one Patrick McCarty, laborer, as living at 218 Greene Street. The address may have been a misprint, since all subsequent directories give the address as 210 Greene Street. The 1860 directory one again recorded this individual as Patrick McCarty, but gave his address as 210 - rather than 218 - Greene Street (p. 533). Then, in 1863, the city directory listed him as Patrick McCarthy - rather than McCarty (p. 541). However, since the address given was 210 Greene Street, it can safely be assumed that this was the same individual. This also provides us with the second example of the McCarthy and McCarty spellings being confused. Sometime in 1863 or 1864, Patrick McCarty died. Exactly from what is not yet known.”
Extract #4 “However Patrick died, 1864 marked the first (and only) appearance of his widow in the New York City Directory. In that 1864 directory (p. 537), she was listed as Catherine McCarty, widow of Patrick, and her address was given as 210 Greene Street. The distance from the church where Billy the Kid was baptized to the farthest end of Greene Street is exactly one mile: since 210 Greene Street was located at the lower end of the street, the distance was considerably closer. Since both Barclay and Green Street were located in what was then Manhattan’s First Ward, all the was needed for confirmation was a census record.”
Missy, the 1860 census of New York City, lists the Patrick McCarthy family, census page 176, lines 24 - 27, living in the First Division, First Ward, of New York City. Patrick is 30; Catherine is 29; Bridget is 7; and Henry is 1. Both parents were born in Ireland. Both children were born in New York.
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Post by MissyS on Jun 10, 2018 8:53:55 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller, Thank You for adding the info. What I dont understand is where did the name Devine come from? It looks like Devine could be Catherine's middle name or perhaps her maiden name? Did she ever use the name Devine later? I thought William was Billy's first name and Henry was his middle name, in the Baptism it list Henry as a first name. It looks like the Catherine McCarty in the Saint Peters Church record was Catholic, however when she married Antrim the ceremony was in a Presbyterian Church, I guess it's not that unusual for a bride to marry in the church that the groom belongs, but considering these things and considering it seems like there were alot of McCarty and McCarthy's back then, it leaves me to doubt it's Billy the Kid and his family in the Saint Peters Church record. Mckinley412 posted on another thread that Billy's real father was Michael not Partick, and it was Antrim that mentioned it, so the 1860 census listing a Patrick McCarthy and also the Church record listing Patrick McCarty wouldn't be right?, Catherine Antrim's obituary listed her as 45 yrs. old when she died in September 16,1874, so if she was 29 in the 1860 census that would mean she would have had to been 43 when she died.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 10, 2018 14:08:37 GMT -5
Missy, you might see on the other thread where TTT did correct me but still Nolan says there is little room for doubt that the father's name was Michael because Catherine listed him as a widow of him in the 1868 Indianapolis City Directory. I really did think Antrim said his name was Michael when I saw the document long ago but probably not since Nolan and Rasche both wrote he just said McCarty.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 10, 2018 14:51:09 GMT -5
Also, Missy, his name could have been Michael Patrick McCarty or Patrick Michael McCarty but I never thought that Catherine Devine family was the right family anyway. It always seemed to be like it was just a wild shot in the dark. Billy's original name is always 'officially' said to have been Henry because of the marriage certificate but it is hard to say because supposedly more than one childhood schoolmate remembers him going by the name Billy so it's suggested that because his step-father's name was also William/Billy that young Billy started going by his middle name Henry. And the only logical way for that to really make sense is if William was his true first name and Henry being the middle name. That's the only way it make sense for him to have gone by both names during his childhood because it would not make sense for him to have to switch from using his first name of Henry to his middle name of William at that time. It must have been because him and Old Man Antrim shared the same first names. And how would Brushy have know to get that right? Most everyone back then (and many people today) were saying the Kid's real name was Henry, but Brushy knew to say that it was William Henry... the only thing that really makes sense. When Billy signed his name William Antrim he was being '''somewhat'''truthful, he said but Antrim is my step-father's name but he didn't say and my first name is actually Henry. Also you may want to know that in Rasch's Trailing Billy the Kid he said the son of Patrick and Catharine Divine was named Patrick Henry McCarty and no one from Billy's childhood ever said he went by the name Pat, Patty, or Patrick. Just Billy and Henry.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 10, 2018 16:52:24 GMT -5
"Missy, you might see on the other thread where TTT did correct me"
mckinley412, My apologies. It was not my intent to correct you. I recognize that it is possible that additional documentation may exist that would support your statement that Antrim had revealed McCarty's given name as Michael.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 10, 2018 17:04:21 GMT -5
It's all good, there's nothing wrong with that. We need to correct each other so we can get to the truth. I know I remember things wrong sometimes but I really in my delusional mind remember seeing it in handwriting saying Michael. Sometimes I do order the original document tho and find out I was right about something as in the case of something I saw in True West article and received the actual document a couple weeks ago but that's about as far back as my memory works. No, I remember other times too. Maybe NmJames has that Antrim document and will look it up because sometimes authors do just repeat what the other author said before him. Either way I've always believed his name was Michael and that's pretty much all I concentrate on looking for when it comes to her first husband.
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Post by MissyS on Jun 10, 2018 17:28:54 GMT -5
Mckinley412, Thank You for pointing out the correction, and the info. I'm not convinced Billy the Kid was born in New York or even lived there, nothing is definite proof to me that he did, however the McCarthy family in the 1860 census TTT posted about is close, it is just a couple of years off on Catherine's age and the name McCarthy is listed instead of McCarty that difference can be explained, and of course the first name of Patrick is questionable, I'm wondering too if this particular census is the reason for the belief that Billy had a sister or if it kinda confirms it? I guess I'm looking for undeniable proof with names and ages that match exactly as what is well known about the Kid and his family, but I may be expecting too much from census records. If that church record listed Billy's name as Patrick Henry McCarty then what explanation can that be other than it's the wrong McCarty family?, because your right Mckinley, Pat, or Patrick wasn't a name familiar with Billy the Kid at all.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 10, 2018 17:31:56 GMT -5
William H. Antrim lived at 58 Cherry Street, the same address where his father, Levi Antrim, lived in the 1865 and 1867 Indianapolis City Directories. In the 1869 directory, his father, Levi Antrim, lived on Plum near Vine Street. William H. Antrim lived on Plum between Cherry and Vine Street. The 1870 Indianapolis City Directory listed the residence of W. H. Antrim as 70 Plum Street. William H. Antrim was not listed in the 1870 census of Indianapolis, although his father and other family members still lived in the 2nd ward of Indianapolis.
Catherine McCarty, widow of Michael McCarty, lived at 385 North New Jersey Street in the 1867 Indianapolis City Directory. She is not found in records after 1867.
Some researchers speculated that this Michael McCarty was the father of Henry McCarty, but no proof has been found.
Other researchers believe that Patrick McCarty and Catherine Devine McCarty were the parents of Henry McCarty, who was christened Patrick McCarty in the Church of Saint Peter in New York City.
There are few credible facts about Billy the Kid. William Bonney alias Kid alias William Antrim was tried and convicted of murder in New Mexico. He was killed by Pat Garrett 14 July 1881. The coroners jury identified him as William H. Bonney alias Kid. His mother was Catherine McCarty. He was one of the witnesses when Catherine McCarty married William H. Antrim in Santa Fe. William Antrim thought that Catherine had two sons by a previous marriage to McCarty, before her husband died in New York City.
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Post by MissyS on Jun 10, 2018 18:39:25 GMT -5
TTT, I was reading about a Catherine McCarty In 1867 being thirty-seven year old and resided at 199 North East Street in Indianapolis, Indiana? It's a different address as the one you listed in your post so she may have lived there only a short time?, or maybe the address I read about for her could be a different Catherine McCarty? I found it on a Antrim Family webpage, she supposedly resided there before moving to Wichita Kansas.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 10, 2018 18:57:27 GMT -5
Missy, What is the website address? Thanks, TTT
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 10, 2018 19:00:07 GMT -5
The reason people think Billy had a sister is not so much because of the census report but because there were two or three old reports that Billy did have a sister. I can't say those accounts were very reliable because basically there is nothing to say they were but I just listed a couple of them on fb not long back for someone and no they do not give names of the sisters in any of them from what I remember and I'm pretty sure they do not because I would have already searched for them.
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Post by MissyS on Jun 10, 2018 19:08:47 GMT -5
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Post by MissyS on Jun 10, 2018 19:29:55 GMT -5
The reason people think Billy had a sister is not so much because of the census report but because there were two or three old reports that Billy did have a sister. I can't say those accounts were very reliable because basically there is nothing to say they were but I just listed a couple of them on fb not long back for someone and no they do not give names of the sisters in any of them from what I remember and I'm pretty sure they do not because I would have already searched for them. Mckinley412, I believe there was a book that came out in 1881 just weeks after Billy supposedly was shot, it was a nickel or dime book more so for kids, it said he had a sister that married a miner and also had a brother named John, but I believe it was a fiction adventure type of book about Billy the Kid and the author didn't care much for historical fact. I own this book and will look to get the name of the sister just to see if it's Bridget.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 10, 2018 19:50:04 GMT -5
I have that one by Fable Jr if that's the one. There is also a WPA interview from the 30's that said he had a sister so that's two of them.
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