Who was Oliver Pleasant Roberts?

[Wayne Land]

Be very careful about believing everything written books. The book "Billy The Kid - His Real Name Was" claims to prove Brushy was actually lying and that his real name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts born in 1879. The logic seems very sound at face value but there is one hole in the story which is easily missed. The book traces the life of the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts from birth in 1879 up until his marriage in 1908 and divorce in 1910. It then picks up O.L. Roberts (undoubtedly Brushy) marrying in 1912 and insists O.L. Roberts and Oliver Pleasant Roberts were the same person. I point out that Oliver Pleasant never used the middle initial "L" nor the nickname "Ollie" instead of Oliver. O.L. Roberts (Brushy) on the other hand who first shows up in the documentation in 1912, always went by "Ollie" or O.L. Furthermore, the signatures as I've shown on my website, definitely are from two different people.

I believe the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts disappeared from the public record right after his embarrassing divorce in 1910. Sometime between then and 1912, Brushy (Billy The Kid) returned to Texas and took on the alias of Ollie L. Roberts.

Whatever really happened, the signatures are pretty solid evidence Brushy was not Oliver Pleasant Roberts. I would love to hear other theories on this.

[Thain]

Doesn't Oliver P. Roberts draft registration card prove he was Ollie L. because it list his next of Kin as Mollie Roberts who was Brushy's wife?

[Wayne Land]

Sorry I took so long to reply. With my move to Washington state I've been pretty distracted for the past couple weeks.

Obviously, it was Brushy who turned in that draft registration. And it "is" the one and only example of him using the middle initial of "P" rather than "L". I believe he used it that one time because he needed an identity that could be verified in order to register. I think you have to produce a birth certificate or something in order to register and he had to have Oliver P's father there with him to verify who he was. I believe his problem in being Oliver "L" was that there was no record of Oliver "L", no birth certificate, no close relative available to witness, etc.

We can't even get Donald Trump to believe our President was really born in America. I don't think we can rule Brushy a fraud based on such evidence that is almost 100 years old. He had reasons on that one occasion to use Oliver P.'s identity. The real Oliver P. had run off 7 or 8 years earlier.

At face value, yes, the draft registration looks like "proof", but I don't see that as ironclad and there are many reasons, just as convincing or more so, that lead one to believe Brushy was "not" Oliver P. Roberts. For example, the hand writing of the two is so different as to be very convincing that Brushy was not Oliver Pleasant Roberts.

[Wayne Land]

One more thought might be worthwhile to share. Regarding the handwriting discrepancy. Some will argue that Brushy's handwriting also does not match that of Billy The Kid. While there are some obvious similarities to some of the letters, I will concede there is no clear match. But I think we have very little evidence that the letters still in existence from Billy to Lew Wallace, etc., were actually written by Billy himself. It was quite common in those days for someone to dictate a letter, but also, there is a very real possibility that the letters that still exist were actually handwritten copies of the originals.

But for discussion's sake lets assume for the moment that one or more of the letters are the originals, written by Billy himself. To compare that handwriting to samples known to be written by Brushy is comparing handwriting that was at least, a minimum of 37 years apart and yet there "are" some limited similarities. Compare my present day writing to what it looked like 37 years ago and you'll get my point there.

Now let's consider the theory that Brushy "was" the real Oliver P. Roberts and that he signed that 1918 Draft Registration card. We also have a sample of the real Oliver P. Roberts' handwriting from his divorce decree from 1910. Compare the two and there is such a great difference no reasonable individual could think they were both from the same hand and these two samples are only 8 years apart.

So in my carefully studied, and honest, opinion. The handwriting samples indicate it is "more" unlikely that Brushy was Oliver P. Roberts than that he was the real Billy The Kid. And in fact, it is the writing on that draft registration card that is crucial in showing that. The very draft card that seems to be so incriminating "against" Brushy's claim is also one of the strongest pieces of documentation in "support" of his claim.

[Thain Timmertberg]

Alias Billy the Kid says the Ollie who died was born in 1967 and that it was Martha's brother. If this Oliver P. and Ollie were two different people someone needs to prove it. They both have a sister named Martha so we might want to assume that it is the same Martha. I tell you this part of Brushy's story is the really damaging part to his identity. The whole family background, it doesn't make sense or hold up. I'm going to start researching the geneology, again. I still believe him and understand that Morrison may have wrote things down wrong too what with it being a confusing story of two families, stolen identity, and then Brushy telling it in bits and pieces, here and there. There must be some way to figure it out, or else he was just a really good look a like that knew a lot about the Kid. I don't think so.

[Wayne Land]

It is entirely possible and I believe probable that Martha had two brothers named Oliver. The first being Oliver L. Roberts born in 1867 or 1868 and the later being Oliver Pleasant Roberts born in 1878 or 1879. Old Henry Oliver had 10 children from two marriages and several of them lived only a year or two. He was very willing to father many children and one more that never got recorded in the census wouldn't be such a huge surprise. So I theorize that Oliver L. was born to a 12 or 13 year old mother out of wedlock and was cared for by relatives. His mother Mary Elizabeth Ferguson didn't see much of him. He ran away as a young teen and got himself killed as Brushy related. On Brushy's return to Texas with Oliver's belongings, the mother accepted him as being her long lost son. Other family members tried to no avail to convince her he was not her son Oliver L. but she wouldn't believe it, or just didn't want to believe it, so the rest of the family decided to humor her and go along with it.

Just theory mind you. I have very little if nothing to prove that's the way it happened. I'd be thrilled if someone could ever find a record of the real Oliver L. Roberts ever having existed.

[lacowboy]

Just using the census will not get anyone anywhere. I have stated before on another forum that they are not always correct and can be manipulated. Just to prove this point I have vowed never to appear on another census. The last one you will find me on is the 2000 census. Now does that mean I have died or just chosen to disappear. Things like that were a lot easier to do back then. You could say you were whoever you wanted to be and people just believed it.

[timmerberg]

there was an oliver roberts born april 2 1878 that died in PA jan 1963. maybe he was the half brother brushy was talking about

[Wayne Land]

Interesting! Do you know where this Oliver Roberts was born or to what parents, etc. You would need to make some connection other than just a name. Oliver Pleasant Roberts is in the census as born August 26, 1879, so this would not likely be the same person. And the Oliver whose name Brushy took as his own would have been born around 1867 or 68 and would have died in the 1890's. So I would be more hopeful that what you've found might be the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts since we have no idea when he died or where. It's just that the birthdays don't match up. Let us know any more info you find on this Oliver though.

[timmerberg]

the one ollie was born in 1868 and died around 1888 or 84, whatever it was. this is an oliver roberts, (maybe a half-brother who was alive when brushy said this to morrison) born 1878 and died 1961 not a couisn like the other. oliver pleasant's birthday is also said to have been 1878, not just 1879. the only info i have is what i said, i paid 30 bucks to look it up on some website that i don't know the name of but can find out. its really for someone else to pursue this lead becuase to be honest, i just probably won't. i once had a lead on a family that claimed they were related to a william barlow but all they knew was that he had something to do with the lincoln county war, i emailed w.c. jameson and he told me to see what else i could find about it, but i didn't have a dime and was very dissappointed at his answer and never emailed him since. honestly, if i had the funds and the time i would solve this within a year. i hope people keep in mind that there are other Catherine Dunn's that are sister's of mary A. dunns that have sisters named Caroline also. some of these aslo live in new york and when you look it up it gives the ward they lived in too. If i could coach someone or be able to do it myself i would use the first brushy book and be carfeful between using whats quoted as brushy saying himself and what is morrison's or sonnichsen' words. good news is, i have seen proof of an afterlife so we will all know the truth of this story someday.

[Wayne Land]

Thanks for the comments Timmerberg. It would blow the lid off all the criticisms of Brushy if that Oliver Roberts who died in 1961 were to be proven to be the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and wife Elizabeth. Simply because if he was, Brushy was not. If Brushy was not Oliver Pleasant Roberts (as I am convinced he was not) then his claim has to be given much, much more credence.

I understand what you mean about the time and the money and I wish I had the skills to search census records and such, and, the time/money. Anyway, I really appreciate your comments. Maybe if I get to retire next year, I'll jump into that part of it with both feet. (LOL)

[timmerberg]

i think it gave the county the one Oliver died at also on that website. On Unsolved Mysteries which i just watched they said he went by the name Oliver PARTRIDGE Roberts, where did they get that from, I used to know everything on this stuff, but am very rusty now. It sounds very familiar tho.

[Wayne Land]

You many recall Geneva Pittmon said she didn't know what the "P" stood for. There is a webpage that refers to him as Oliver Partridge Roberts and if I not mistaken the page was posted on a genealogy forum by a relative of Louticia Ballard, Brushy's second wife. My gut tells me Brushy himself wasn't too sure what the "P" stood for and the name Partridge was a guess. Or it may have been used by him to delineate himself from the original Oliver "Pleasant" Roberts. I just don't know, but here's the link to where I first saw the name used:

freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~heddins/Stanbery/images/FamilyPhotos/BrushyBillRoberts.htm

[timmerberg]

i know people see different things when they look at a photo, but Brushy aka William Roberts looks alot like william robert that was married to sallie Chisum, i saw two pics of her husband one from the side and one from the front. the one from the front has obvious similarities, the one from the side looks alot like the rare pic of brushy when he was about 50 and taken from the side. i don't think that pic is in the books. i read about the life and death of william robert briefly online so it probably not him but you know how recorded history is all messed up. again i'm hoping someone else will do the research and give thier input so i don't have to do much, but it seems like its just me and Wayne Land talking for now. if you can't find the pics on a search let me know and i'll look up the website for you, they're on page 7 of some discussion board.

[searcher64]

the possibility of brushy being william robert(s) husband of sallie chisum intrigued me for a moment, so i put the photos of robert into the btk 'test machine' and they decidedly DIDN't match those of btk or brushy.