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Post by Wayne Land on May 20, 2018 23:08:45 GMT -5
I don't doubt that Zerelda directed she be buried between her two dead sons. I just don't believe that means they were both buried there. If she spent all those years helping to cover up Jesse's fake death, it would not be surprising she'd make such a request. Maybe even Jesse had promised to make sure he was buried there when the time came?
As for Truman, I read somewhere that he expressed some support of Brushy's story. I'd have to go dig that up again, but the insinuation was that if Morrison had gone to President Truman rather than the Governor, Brushy may well have gotten his pardon. And that was based on a statement made by Truman.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 20, 2018 23:15:40 GMT -5
"If she spent all those years helping to cover up Jesse's fake death, it would not be surprising she'd make such a request."
Baseless assumption. There is no evidence, none whatsoever, that Zerelda ever tried to cover up Jesse's death.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 21, 2018 10:19:16 GMT -5
Well, I beg to differ. If there is DNA proof that he faked his own death and Zerelda insisted he was dead then I'd say that's pretty strong evidence she tried to cover it up. I know, that DNA proof is yet to be revealed. But there is already evidence of other types though not as strong. I think we need to clarify, for purposes of our discussion, that "evidence" can rise to the level of scientific proof or not and still be "evidence."
Definition of Evidence: "Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak."
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Shackles
May 21, 2018 22:27:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by wannabe12 on May 21, 2018 22:27:20 GMT -5
Wayne,
DNA at this date would not be the smoking gun everyone thinks it could be. Since there are no pure samples of Jesse’s DNA available, the only kind of DNA that could be compared in Dalton’s case would be mitochondrial DNA to prove they share a female relative. If I’m not mistaken this is one of the big problems with the DNA match on the body buried on the James farm. If they share a female relation that is all it would prove. The further you get away from the original source the weaker the match will be, so this will likely be the only match you could get for sure.
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Shackles
May 21, 2018 22:30:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by wannabe12 on May 21, 2018 22:30:20 GMT -5
Should have added that mitochondrial DNA can not be passed on by sons to their children, because it can only be passed on from the mother to sons and daughters and from daughters to their children since it is carried in a women’s eggs.
If that is the only for sure match available it would seem a lot to ask non believers to accept this as real proof of Dalton’ s identification, when his supporters refused to believe it when the Starr investigation was done.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 21, 2018 22:41:25 GMT -5
Yes, I am aware of all that but if the rumor is confirmed then we are talking about DNA obtained from a living relative of Dalton, not from a tooth of uncertain origin.
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Shackles
May 22, 2018 5:20:29 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by wannabe12 on May 22, 2018 5:20:29 GMT -5
It’s still the same thing. You have no pure enough source from Jesse James to compare it to. The descendants alive now may be too far removed to say for sure. What happens if it isn’t any kind of match?? Then where do you look? How do you defend his claim then??. What relative of Dalton?? If he was Jesse wouldn’t he have mostly the same relatives?? Like I have said I haven’t read much on Dalton but what I have read he doesn’t say anything about marrying or having children after he supposedly left his wife and kids as Jesse. It may be somewhere I haven’t read yet.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 22, 2018 10:12:17 GMT -5
We'll see. I need to hold off on discussing this any further until more is known. I really don't know the details. BTW, I've always doubted Dalton's claim and still do pretty much. But I've always found it interesting to see how much each side of the Brushy issue or the Brushy/Dalton issue if you will, are able to continue to support their respective positions no matter how much evidence points the other way. Deny, deny, deny until death us do part seems to be the philosophy. For the record, I don't support that attitude. DNA proved O.J. was guilty but the jury didn't want to accept that, so they bought into the defense's "denial". But no matter what, truth is still truth. Personally, I do want the truth.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 22, 2018 12:47:38 GMT -5
wannabe12, This was the conclusion of the 1995 DNA comparison of two descendants of Susan Levenia James Parmer and a sample from the exhumation: thegeneticgenealogist.com/2008/02/15/famous-dna-review-part-iv-jesse-james/“Do the mtDNA results prove that the exhumed remains are those of Jesse James? The answer to this question must be no, as there is always the possibility (however remote) that the remains are from a different maternal relative of RJ and MN, or from an unrelated person with the same mtDNA sequence. However, it should be emphasized that the mtDNA results are in complete agreement with the other scientific investigations of the exhumed remains: there is no scientific basis whatsoever for doubting that the exhumed remains are those of Jesse James. The burden of proof now shifts to those who, for whatever reason, choose to still doubt the identification. The mtDNA results reported herein provide a standard which other claimants to the legacy of Jesse James must satisfy.” Skeptics and conspiracy theorists doubt the validity of the tests. Betty Dorsett Duke was the most vocal skeptic. She was the author of 3 books promoting her great-grandfather, James Lafayette Courtney, as Jesse Woodson James. Courtney had enlisted in the Union army and was a drummer. He applied for, and received, a pension for his service in the Union army. If Duke acknowledged that Jesse James was buried in Missouri, James Lafayette Courtney could not have been JWJ.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 22, 2018 14:41:37 GMT -5
Is it a "fact" that the tooth they got DNA from came from Jesse James? I don't know that. I read that it did not actually come from the original grave from the family farm. I read they did not find anything at that original gravesite so they used a tooth that was "allegedly" from the original grave possibly recovered from the time the body was moved. If that tooth didn't come from that grave then it could have easily been Jesse's tooth even though the body in the grave was not his. At which point the DNA match to the living relative means absolutely nothing accept that Jesse's descendants are related to him. Duh? So yes, the skull in the grave they exhumed had a bullet hole in it. Okay? If someone else was killed in Jesse's place from a gunshot to the head, wouldn't their skull have a bullet wound. Of course. So their exhumation provides compelling evidence that the body in that grave is the body of whomever was killed at Jesse's home that day. But it does not prove that person was Jesse James. Not unless someone can tell us exactly how we know for sure that the tooth was from the body that was buried in Jesse's grave.
As I said, "denial, denial, denial".
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 22, 2018 15:58:48 GMT -5
There will always be a fringe element who envision improbable scenarios and ignore the preponderance of credible evidence, just as Betty Dorsett Duke did.
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Post by mckinley412 on May 26, 2018 22:18:03 GMT -5
I just read this thread.
I don't remember Billy saying he ever killed Buckshot. I do remember him saying Charlie did when he was asked in court.
I wish I had Nolan's West book so I could analyze his theories on the escape again but I remember thinking the evidence fits Brushy's story. The struggle that was heard from outside could have been Bell getting cracked over the head, maybe stumbling while his pistol is wrestled from him, or two men running through the hallway in cowboy boots, possibly Bell slipping as he turns the corner for the stairs, crashes into the wall to make the turn, Billy jumping to the floor, handcuffs and leg irons crashing into the floor.
In the book They Knew Billy, Paco Anaya says Billy held a gun on Gauss while Gauss split the chains. The interviewer says Anaya's information is first hand from the Kid.
I agree that Burns book may be more accurate than we think. Whether or not it was a five day war he did argue adamantly with historians that it was a three day war and according to Otero jr's book several interviewees who were there referred to it as the 3 Day War.
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Post by maggiethearchivist on Feb 8, 2021 18:50:18 GMT -5
Hello Everyone!
Would anyone perchance happen to know if a photo of Godfrey Gauss exists....?
Thanks in advance!!
Maggie
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Post by clydec on Feb 8, 2021 19:14:46 GMT -5
Yes it does.
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Post by maggiethearchivist on Feb 8, 2021 19:36:41 GMT -5
Amazing!!! Do you know where such photo lives? I'd love to reach out to a library or historical archive for licensing!! Thanks so much, Maggie
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