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Post by 44colt on Aug 6, 2018 7:45:16 GMT -5
"Its a long story but a lot of the information (not all) on the investigation done by Steve Sederwall/ Cold West is in W.C. Jameson's book "Cold Case" that was published by Pequot Press. Short story is that they were using cattle to launder counterfeit money." Can you cite credible evidence or records that show the US Secret Service was aware that Jesse and Billy the Kid were in on a counterfeit ring in Lincoln? Thanks,
There is a lot of information on this and too much to recreate here. Bottom line is that multiple people were involved in "selling" cattle for counterfeit money and laundering that money through a Missouri bank. Many associates of Billy the Kid and Jesse James were involved and are named in the Secret Service reports. Billy Wilson was indicted and a trial was held The United States of America vs. William Wilson under Judge William Bristol on May 30,1881.
On January 2, 1881 Special Agent Azariah Wild in Lincoln mentions that he has three men on James and that had he known he was wanted he could have arrested him in New Mexico.
Do you believe Jesse James never came to Lincoln? If so, what credible evidence do you have to support your claim?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 7, 2018 23:08:36 GMT -5
Wild submitted daily reports to the Chief of the U. S. Secret Service from his arrival in Santa Fe 1880 until his return to his New Orleans headquarters in January 1881. See U.S. Treasury Department, Secret Services Division, New Orleans District, Reports of Social Operative Azariah F. Wild (T915, Roll 308), RG 87, Records of U.S. Secret Service Agents, 1875-1936, NARA.
To which Jesse are you referring? Jesse James, son of Robert and Zerelda Cole James? William John James, who is said to have died in an Arkansas mental institution? James Lafayette Courtney, who was a Union bugler? John Frank Dalton, who died in Hood County, Texas? Senator William Andrews Clark? Jeremiah James, who died in Missouri? Jacob Benjamin Galt, who died in Missouri?
Jesse James, wife Zee, and children Jesse Edwards and Mary Susan lived in Davidson County, Tennessee, 2 June 1880, using an alias as the Howard family of Maryland. The family moved back to St. Jo before his death 3 April 1882.
Can you cite credible evidence or records that show the US Secret Service was aware that Jesse and Billy the Kid were in on a counterfeit ring in Lincoln?
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Post by clydec on Aug 13, 2018 8:12:42 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller can you tell me why if James Courtney was a Union bugler there is a photo of him attending a reunion of Quantrill's raiders? I am not saying that Courtney was Jesse James, but that does seem strange. Also, there is a photo of him with the James family sitting front row with Frank James at his wedding in Missouri. That seems strange for a Union man as well to be consorting with known Rebels? In the top photo, Courtney is left side second from the end. This was the reunion of Quantrill's raiders. The bottom photo shows a man front row right that has been identified by some James family members as being Jesse James and has been identified as well as being the same man known as James L Courtney.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 13, 2018 10:18:50 GMT -5
Good question, clydec.
The photos are probably the same as those found in one of Betty Dorsett Duke's 3 books. She claimed that James L Courtney, her great-grandfather, was Jesse Woodson James. Duke also incorrectly identified a photograph of Diana Dorthulla Andress Courtney Haun, the mother of James Lafayette Courtney, as Zerelda Cole James Samuel.
Verifiable information about the life of James Lafayette Courtney is found on Find A Grave memorial 23319153.
U.S. Civil War Soldiers, 1861-1865 Name: James L. Courtney Side: Union Regiment State/Origin: Missouri Regiment Name: 12 Missouri Cavalry Regiment Name Expanded: 12th Regiment, Missouri Cavalry COMPANY: M Rank In: Private Rank In Expanded: Private Rank Out: Bugler Rank Out Expanded: Bugler Film Number: M390 roll 10
Can you tell me why you believe that James Courtney is included in each of the two photos?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 13, 2018 22:04:23 GMT -5
clydec, The Library of Congress has a website, "Chronicling America". Many old newspapers have been scanned and digitized. If you search Chronicling America, state - Texas, year - 1901, for "James L. Courtney" The images is the Houston Post, May 11,1901, p. 2, column 4 Heading: Texas Matters Among those awarded pension was James L. Courtney, Blevins, Texas, $6
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 14, 2018 15:15:43 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller can you tell me why if James Courtney was a Union bugler there is a photo of him attending a reunion of Quantrill's raiders? I am not saying that Courtney was Jesse James, but that does seem strange. Also, there is a photo of him with the James family sitting front row with Frank James at his wedding in Missouri. That seems strange for a Union man as well to be consorting with known Rebels? In the top photo, Courtney is left side second from the end. This was the reunion of Quantrill's raiders. The bottom photo shows a man front row right that has been identified by some James family members as being Jesse James and has been identified as well as being the same man known as James L Courtney. clydec, This was posted on the James Genforum. The links no longer work.
James L. Courtney, son of Stephen Courtney, enlisted in Union Army. Image of original at freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jessejames/jlcminor.htmlhttp://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jessejames/jlcminor.html21st January 1864.Stephen Courtney signs for underage James L. Courtney to enlist in Union Army. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James L. Courtney made inquiry concerning veterans benefits.He describes his experiences as a soldier, and his reason for desertion. Image of original at freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jessejames/jlcpension.htmlhttp://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jessejames/jlcpension.htmlTRANSCIPTION: "Please Examine the Record of what we went through.Know Sir while we was at Columbus, Old Habard the magor Treated all of us So bad & Swore we should not have any clothes & only 1/2Rations & he made his wordTrue until a great many of us boys was forced to by citizens clothes.I was in full citizens suit & a great many of us got Tired of Soldiering & we left the comand.I went Home & I was one of the gang whether I am Subject to the law at this time is for you to say if you will Examine the Record of the battalion when they was mustered out you will See there was several missen but when the Bytalion was Ordered back to Fort Leavenworth Kansas to be mustard out Several of the boys (this sentences is impossible to read) But I wasant So Luckey as to hear they was ordered back untill it was to late.Know Sir if there is any chance for me to get my Pay & Bounty & a land warent Please let me Know & on what Terms.I was the company bugler at the time I left & had served as Regimental bugler some of the time.Yours Fraternally James L. Courtney, Eddy, Texas"
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Post by 44colt on Aug 15, 2018 12:07:58 GMT -5
To which Jesse are you referring? Jesse James, son of Robert and Zerelda Cole James? William John James, who is said to have died in an Arkansas mental institution? James Lafayette Courtney, who was a Union bugler? John Frank Dalton, who died in Hood County, Texas? Senator William Andrews Clark? Jeremiah James, who died in Missouri? Jacob Benjamin Galt, who died in Missouri?
Are you asking me or Azariah Wild? I think from the context of his report it is pretty clear he is referring to the outlaw Jesse James. You know, since the counterfeit ring was running through Missouri banks with men that were associated with him (the outlaw Jesse James) and what not.
If you think maybe he (Azariah Wild) meant some of those other people you list then you should try calling him up and asking him and see what he says.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 16, 2018 21:09:43 GMT -5
To which Jesse are you referring? Jesse James, son of Robert and Zerelda Cole James? William John James, who is said to have died in an Arkansas mental institution? James Lafayette Courtney, who was a Union bugler? John Frank Dalton, who died in Hood County, Texas? Senator William Andrews Clark? Jeremiah James, who died in Missouri? Jacob Benjamin Galt, who died in Missouri?
Are you asking me or Azariah Wild? I think from the context of his report it is pretty clear he is referring to the outlaw Jesse James. You know, since the counterfeit ring was running through Missouri banks with men that were associated with him (the outlaw Jesse James) and what not.
If you think maybe he (Azariah Wild) meant some of those other people you list then you should try calling him up and asking him and see what he says.
Daniel, Thanks for the clarification. The story that Jesse Woodson James was in New Mexico about 1881 is apparently not supported with credible evidence. J. Frank Dalton’s story that Bloody Bill Anderson was not killed in Missouri in 1864, but lived near Brownwood, Texas, after the war is nothing more than a tall tale. J. Frank Dalton’s story that William Clarke Quantrill did not die in Kentucky in 1865, but taught school in Osceola, Texas, after the war is nothing more than another of his tall tales.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 17, 2018 15:05:48 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller, I can't say for certain Jesse James was specifically wanted for counterfeit but Wild did mention him being involved and wanted for crimes in the area. He said Jesse James was William Campbell, Lew Wallace also mentioned Jesse James being wanted for the murder of Chapman. It is likely they were talking about Campbell but I do believe they were referring to the famous outlaw. But if they weren't they were still not referring to men named Dalton or Courtney. They clearly mention Jesse James. One reference you could start with would be Cooper's Writings, Words, and Wits. It has been mentioned long ago in other books because I remember writing to Brett Hall about it and I still have the emails. 2007 or something.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 17, 2018 15:17:14 GMT -5
P.s. I have discovered some small things myself but in regards to a previous comment here, it was Brett L. Hall who showed me a lot of the University Archives, etc. to look at, just to give credit where it is due. One thing Billy researchers have always been good at.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 17, 2018 17:50:29 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller, I can't say for certain Jesse James was specifically wanted for counterfeit but Wild did mention him being involved and wanted for crimes in the area. He said Jesse James was William Campbell, Lew Wallace also mentioned Jesse James being wanted for the murder of Chapman. It is likely they were talking about Campbell but I do believe they were referring to the famous outlaw. But if they weren't they were still not referring to men named Dalton or Courtney. They clearly mention Jesse James. One reference you could start with would be Cooper's Writings, Words, and Wits. It has been mentioned long ago in other books because I remember writing to Brett Hall about it and I still have the emails. 2007 or something. mckinley412, I agree that the references were to Jesse Woodson James, son of Robert Sallee James and Zerelda Cole. The impostors didn't start crawling out of the woodwork until long after Jesse's death.
Jesse was known to be in Davidson County, TN, in 1880, and in St. Jo, MO, when he was killed in 1882. The distance from St. Jo to Lincoln County is about 800 miles (13 hours by car on today's paved roads), over 1,600 miles round trip. Possible, but improbable, that Jesse was ever in New Mexico. An unlikely location for printing, or passing, counterfeit bills in a relatively small economy.
William Campbell was probably incorrectly identified as Jesse James.
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Post by 44colt on Aug 17, 2018 22:12:43 GMT -5
William Campbell was probably incorrectly identified as Jesse James.
This is an opinion. Can you show definitive proof that William Campbell was incorrectly identified as Jesse James?
/sarc
Just fyi, that is what you do to us. I think we probably all love you for it because you are a very good researcher, but it is annoying because you are definitely not unbiased or necessarily consistent to apply the same standard to yourself that you apply to us.
No hard feelings though. You are a credit to the board and believe it or not I'm glad you are here.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 17, 2018 23:21:59 GMT -5
William Campbell was probably incorrectly identified as Jesse James.
This is an opinion. Can you show definitive proof that William Campbell was incorrectly identified as Jesse James?
/sarc
Just fyi, that is what you do to us. I think we probably all love you for it because you are a very good researcher, but it is annoying because you are definitely not unbiased or necessarily consistent to apply the same standard to yourself that you apply to us.
No hard feelings though. You are a credit to the board and believe it or not I'm glad you are here.
Daniel, Not my opinion. mckinley412 posted this: Texas Truth Teller, I can't say for certain Jesse James was specifically wanted for counterfeit but Wild did mention him being involved and wanted for crimes in the area. He said Jesse James was William Campbell, Lew Wallace also mentioned Jesse James being wanted for the murder of Chapman. It is likely they were talking about Campbell but I do believe they were referring to the famous outlaw. But if they weren't they were still not referring to men named Dalton or Courtney. They clearly mention Jesse James. One reference you could start with would be Cooper's Writings, Words, and Wits. It has been mentioned long ago in other books because I remember writing to Brett Hall about it and I still have the emails. 2007 or something.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 19, 2018 15:22:12 GMT -5
Hoyt said that Billy and Jesse were in New Mexico. Wild's opinion would be more accurate than mine since he was there. And also 1879 when Jesse is alleged to have been in New Mexico just so happens to be the year when Jesse's whereabouts are unaccounted for. Soooo.... Who knows. Maybe Jesse thought making counterfeit money would be easier than stealing real money. "The Jesse James theory is very likely." Now I have said it both ways so no matter what I might be right. (If we ever find out the truth I can always go back and delete one of my comments and leave the other...Pretty smart )
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 19, 2018 18:14:40 GMT -5
mckinley412, there are probably countless stories about Jesse, where he was and what he did. I agree that the movements of Jesse James are largely unknown. Apparently, the presence of special agent Wild in New Mexico is known: “Wild submitted daily reports to the Chief of the U. S. Secret Service from his arrival in Santa Fe 1880 until his return to his New Orleans headquarters in January 1881. See U.S. Treasury Department, Secret Services Division, New Orleans District, Reports of Social Operative Azariah F. Wild (T915, Roll 308), RG 87, Records of U.S. Secret Service Agents, 1875-1936, NARA.”
I was responding to this statement: “On January 2, 1881 Special Agent Azariah Wild in Lincoln mentions that he has three men on James and that had he known he was wanted he could have arrested him in New Mexico.” That would have been in 1880 or January 1881.
In my opinion, the presence of Jesse James in New Mexico is very improbable. That conclusion is based on these facts: Jesse James was in Davidson County, TN, in early June 1880; Jesse was killed in St. Jo, MPO, in April 1882; and Jesse would have had to travel 1,600 miles to New Mexico and back.
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