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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 3, 2018 19:36:52 GMT -5
“That is the photo that was brought out by the Jones family when Brushy went to visit them during his time with Morrison in 1949 I believe and Brushy correctly identified everyone in that photo including himself and the Jones family said that he was correct.”
Brushy and Morrison did visit the Jones brothers. Morrison said the he and Brushy met with Sam and William Jones.. William Jones’ grandson, Bill Shafer, writing for William Jones, said that he would not sign the affidavit Morrison solicited because Brushy gave no conclusive proof that he was Billy the Kid. Sam Jones wrote the he did not sign an affidavit because he did not want to get involved. Neither William or Sam Jones said that Brushy was Billy the Kid.
Other sources have provided evidence that the photo of the Jones brothers with two other men was a Jones family photo.
Brushy should have been able to correctly identify all 4 men since the photo appeared in a book published in 1926.
“the Jones family said that he was correct.” In what publication is this claim found?
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Post by MissyS on Mar 6, 2018 5:35:21 GMT -5
There is a photograph of 4 men on page 157 of "The West of Billy the Kid", by Frederick Nolan in 1931. The following information about the was provided: The photo is labeled, "Seven Rivers Men". Date and photographer unknown, 1870s; the original is a tintype. R. N. Mullin Collection. The men were identified by Eve Ball, to whom the photograph was given by the Jones family, as rear, left to right, JIM JONES and MARION F. TURNER; seated, left to right, BOB SPEAKES AND JOHN JONES. Others believe the man at front left is Buck Powell. The identical photo is on page 12 of "Billy the Kid, An Autobiography", by Daniel A Edwards, 2014. The photo is labeled, 'At the end of the cattle trail'. The caption reads, "Copy of the tintype Brushy referenced that was made in Dodge City in the fall of 1877". The four men are identified, left to right, as Jim Jones, Bob Speakes (trail boss), John Jones, and Billy the Kid. Edwards provided no provenance, no proof that the photo was made in 1877, no proof that the photo was made in Dodge City, no proof that Billy the Kid was in the photo. Edwards failed to explain who identified the subjects. Edwards failed to credit prior publication of the photo. Edwards failed to explain how MARION F. TURNER became Brushy Bill. Texas Truth Teller, I know Eve Ball interviewed many during the writers project, one was Frank Coe, she was also given other photograghs that was used in a old west magazines, the photo of the four men has been around even before the famous tintype of Billy apparently, according to William Hamlin anyway. Frederick Nolan's book "The West of Billy the Kid" was published around 1998? I know hes a respected authority of Billy the Kid, and Eve Ball is also a good source, but anyone can be mistaken by no fault of their own, all it takes is for someone back in the day to point out this is who is in the photo, and it's their word to rely on, if that person is mistaken with the identity then later it sticks as historical fact. When a tintype photo is taken there could be up to four identical copies made?, one copy could have been given to each of the four men?, or the copies could have been given away or passed down, with more than one tintype made maybe more than one surfaced and that could be why there are different versions of the history of it? just a guess, but a copy of it may have been given to Eve Ball in 1931, but it still could have been taken in Dodge City in 1877? I'm also wondering if the Spanish-American family that called Billy "Keed" Hamlin refered to in his book could also be the Jones Family?
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Post by 44colt on Apr 19, 2018 21:25:21 GMT -5
There is a photograph of 4 men on page 157 of "The West of Billy the Kid", by Frederick Nolan in 1931. The following information about the was provided: The photo is labeled, "Seven Rivers Men". Date and photographer unknown, 1870s; the original is a tintype. R. N. Mullin Collection. The men were identified by Eve Ball, to whom the photograph was given by the Jones family, as rear, left to right, JIM JONES and MARION F. TURNER; seated, left to right, BOB SPEAKES AND JOHN JONES. Others believe the man at front left is Buck Powell. The identical photo is on page 12 of "Billy the Kid, An Autobiography", by Daniel A Edwards, 2014. The photo is labeled, 'At the end of the cattle trail'. The caption reads, "Copy of the tintype Brushy referenced that was made in Dodge City in the fall of 1877". The four men are identified, left to right, as Jim Jones, Bob Speakes (trail boss), John Jones, and Billy the Kid. Edwards provided no provenance, no proof that the photo was made in 1877, no proof that the photo was made in Dodge City, no proof that Billy the Kid was in the photo. Edwards failed to explain who identified the subjects. Edwards failed to credit prior publication of the photo. Edwards failed to explain how MARION F. TURNER became Brushy Bill. Hello TTT, Obviously my use of this photo is a direct pull from "Alias Billy the Kid" by Morrison. I make no apology for my approach as it was intentional. I stand on Morrison's shoulders as does every Brushy researcher. Rather than go back and redo what he did differently and source the photo elsewhere it came over along with many others. You still miss the point of my effort and that's ok, to a hammer, everything is a nail. Morrison's book wasn't perfect. My book isn't perfect. Brushy wasn't perfect. The process whereby Morrison attempted to legitimately secure a pardon wasn't perfect. Had Morrison appealed directly to Truman he would have gotten his pardon, but he was convinced to go to the Governor of NM. Being the stickler for appropriateness and being a man of impeccable integrity, he followed the right process, perhaps not realizing the Governor was a relative of Nolan or that he would steal his legal brief and not return it. He probably destroyed it after telling Morrison it would be filed as a matter of public record but I digress. Regardless, I can promise you Nolan's books are also not perfect and he was very biased and had a vested interest in protecting the legend he helped create. Not sure I would trust his ID of this photo in any event, but if putting a label on it makes you feel better, I understand. I do not make any claims on this photo. It is represented by Morrison as a photo that the Jones family showed him of the Kid. That's it. I don't compare it to Brushy or use it as evidence one way or another. Its just part of the story Morrison shared and I continued. That's it. Just thought you would appreciate the clarification and also I just thought I would chime in because its been awhile. Best, DAE
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 20, 2018 11:04:47 GMT -5
In order to have any kind of opinion about Brushy Bill, we all have to put faith in something that may not be perfect. As Dan says, Morrison was certainly not perfect, but I have placed faith that he was a man of integrity and I can cite my reasons for that faith. That said, Morrison claimed the photo came from the Jones brothers themselves and that they identified Billy in the photo and that Brushy also remembered the photo, etc. Therefore, if that is "not" Billy in the photo then either the Jones brothers and Brushy were all lying about it, or Morrison lied about it. I personally am not convinced any of them lied. Therefore I must conclude that Eve Ball was not perfect either.
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Post by montanas on Apr 20, 2018 19:15:33 GMT -5
Your welcome Missy. It's not Billy the kid in the photo. This photo had to be taken well after the kid was either killed or escaped because one of the rifles being displayed in the picture was not even manufactured until after that date. It is a colt lightening, manufactured from 1884 to 1904. I don't think its THE Billy the kid. And he doesn't look anything like Brushy
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 21, 2018 9:27:39 GMT -5
“That said, Morrison claimed the photo came from the Jones brothers themselves and that they identified Billy in the photo and that Brushy also remembered the photo, etc.”
From “Alias Billy the Kid”, p. 113. Bill Jones is quoted by his grandson: “I am sorry, but Bill Jones does not feel he can sign your affidavits that your man is Billy the Kid. He gave no conclusive proof of this at the time we met him. It seems to me that if he were Billy the Kid, he would not need affidavits to prove his contention.”
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 21, 2018 11:16:59 GMT -5
Daniel, thanks for responding.
The image on page 2 of “Billy the Kid, An Autobiography”, is incorrectly identified.
William A Tunstill devoted about 7 years to researching Brushy Bill’s story before he wrote “Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”. He successfully identified Martha Heath, wife of Dudley Heath (“Alias Billy the Kid”, p. 99), as Martha Roberts Heath. Tunstill identified Henry Oliver Roberts as the father of Martha Roberts Heath. He identified several of Martha’s relatives. He thought Elaine Haws, Henry and Jo Heath, and Paul Emerson were 3rd and 4th cousins of Billy the Kid. They were all relatives of Oliver P. Roberts. Tunstill visited in the home of a granddaughter of Henry Oliver Roberts (“Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”, p. 35). Tunstill was shown a large picture of her grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts. Tunstill said that same picture was on page 38 of “Alias Billy the Kid”, 1955 edition.
The authors of both “Alias Billy the Kid” and in “Billy the Kid, An Autobiography” misidentified a photograph of Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts as the fictional Mary Adeline Dunn.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 21, 2018 15:27:45 GMT -5
Daniel, thanks for responding.
That is a nice collection of photographs on page 112 of “Billy the Kid An Autobiography”, showing Brushy Bill at different ages. The inset is a photo of Brushy Bill when he was about 14. Brushy Bill said he left Silver City in 1872 (about age 12), traveled to Buffalo Gap, and then to Carlton where he found his father. He remained in his father’s home until he left in May 1874 (about age 14), traveling with a herd of cattle to Indian Territory. He left the herd at Briartown. Brushy spent the next 3 months with Belle Starr before returning to Silver City.
The photograph of Brushy Bill, age approximately 14, was made in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Fort Smith, Arkansas, is in Sebastian County. Oliver P. Roberts was born in Bates Township, Sebastian County, Arkansas, in 1879. The distance from Bates Township, Arkansas, to Fort Smith is approximately 22 miles.
The distance from Briartown, Oklahoma, to Fort Smith, Arkansas, is approximately 67 miles. Brushy left Belle Starr and traveled the opposite direction to Silver City.
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 21, 2018 19:55:26 GMT -5
How do we know the photo of him at age 14 was made in Fort Smith, AR? Also, Billy the Kid could have been younger than people thought and this has been discussed in a book or two. Brushy gave his birthdate as Dec 31, 1861 to Henry J. Walker. I already give him a little slack with dates but I give him 2 years when it comes to age.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 21, 2018 21:32:00 GMT -5
Thain, If you trust Daniel Edwards information below the photo on page 112, the photo was made in Fort Smith.
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 21, 2018 22:51:32 GMT -5
Ahhh. Ok. Yeah. I was wondering about him but I read his first one and I read his updated version quickly and I missed that part. I've talked to him since then, questioned him about stuff. Yeah, I trust him. We don't always agree on certain opinions and what not, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't make stuff up. He explained adequately everything I asked including his photo comparisons and how they ended up getting published like that. He, me, and other people on here sometimes obtain information from a person that doesn't want it publicized. It's not right, it's not fair, but what can you do? You have to promise you won't show it or won't talk about it if you want the info. But you know who you can trust basically. I'll look into that young photo more because I always had an extreme curiosity about it anyway. And I will drop Brushy Bill on his ass off my stagecoach if I find something that can realistically show he wasn't Billy but man that is a tiny list of like one or two things and one of them don't even count and the other which is him saying the armory was across from Garrett's office I don't even count because it was across the hall at the other end and that could have been Morrison writing notes down wrong. Because he had everything else about the interior right and the exterior and the directions which when I got there I was completely screwed up because I pictured everything different. So he was there before at least and I guarantee he didn't read as many Billy books as me.
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Post by MissyS on Apr 22, 2018 8:52:08 GMT -5
After leaving the herd at Briartown, Brushy went a distance further eventually meeting up with a man and that man then took him along with him to Belle Starr only Brushy called her Belle Reed as she was known at that time, now not knowing the distances he went before he met the man and the distance the man went afterward is anyone's guess? Fort Smith was an area quite familiar with Belle Starr, there's even a photo of her sitting side saddle on a horse said to have been taken at Ft. Smith, maybe the three months Brushy stayed with Belle wasn't spent the whole time in Indian Territory either? Could Belle Starr/Reed have traveled to Ft. Smith and taken a 14 yr old Brushy with her before he left for Silver City?
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Post by MissyS on Apr 22, 2018 14:25:11 GMT -5
Also reading about Belle I came across mention that her and Sam Starr at one time had sixty-two acres on the north side of the Canadian River, near Briartown. Belle named the place Younger’s Bend, considered a hideout. I don't know if this was known before 1950?, but I don't believe Brushy got that information from Saga of Billy The Kid.
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Post by Hunter on Jul 6, 2018 19:52:05 GMT -5
Daniel, thanks for responding. The image on page 2 of “Billy the Kid, An Autobiography”, is incorrectly identified. William A Tunstill devoted about 7 years to researching Brushy Bill’s story before he wrote “Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”. He successfully identified Martha Heath, wife of Dudley Heath (“Alias Billy the Kid”, p. 99), as Martha Roberts Heath. Tunstill identified Henry Oliver Roberts as the father of Martha Roberts Heath. He identified several of Martha’s relatives. He thought Elaine Haws, Henry and Jo Heath, and Paul Emerson were 3rd and 4th cousins of Billy the Kid. They were all relatives of Oliver P. Roberts. Tunstill visited in the home of a granddaughter of Henry Oliver Roberts (“Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”, p. 35). Tunstill was shown a large picture of her grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts. Tunstill said that same picture was on page 38 of “Alias Billy the Kid”, 1955 edition. The authors of both “Alias Billy the Kid” and in “Billy the Kid, An Autobiography” misidentified a photograph of Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts as the fictional Mary Adeline Dunn. That information you got is not correct. I could not find a photograph on PAGE 38 or anywhere in the book of Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts as Mary Adeline Dunn, in my 1955 book "Alias Billy the Kid." And I went page to page in my Billy The Kid An Autobiography and could not find one picture identifying of Mary Adeline Dunn.
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Post by Hunter on Jul 6, 2018 19:56:48 GMT -5
Daniel, thanks for responding. The image on page 2 of “Billy the Kid, An Autobiography”, is incorrectly identified. William A Tunstill devoted about 7 years to researching Brushy Bill’s story before he wrote “Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”. He successfully identified Martha Heath, wife of Dudley Heath (“Alias Billy the Kid”, p. 99), as Martha Roberts Heath. Tunstill identified Henry Oliver Roberts as the father of Martha Roberts Heath. He identified several of Martha’s relatives. He thought Elaine Haws, Henry and Jo Heath, and Paul Emerson were 3rd and 4th cousins of Billy the Kid. They were all relatives of Oliver P. Roberts. Tunstill visited in the home of a granddaughter of Henry Oliver Roberts (“Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”, p. 35). Tunstill was shown a large picture of her grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts. Tunstill said that same picture was on page 38 of “Alias Billy the Kid”, 1955 edition. The authors of both “Alias Billy the Kid” and in “Billy the Kid, An Autobiography” misidentified a photograph of Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts as the fictional Mary Adeline Dunn. That information you got is not correct. I could not find a photograph on PAGE 38 or anywhere in the book of Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts as Mary Adeline Dunn, in my 1955 book "Alias Billy the Kid." And I went page to page in my Billy The Kid An Autobiography and could not find one picture identifying of Mary Adeline Dunn.
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