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Post by xxnikkixx on Feb 3, 2018 21:12:01 GMT -5
Hello, I remember learning a little about Brushy Bill Roberts in school and this forum information is fascinating. I can't get enough, so imagine my surprise to have the google search for a family tree project my boss gave to me have several of the names of Brushy's documented family and lead me here. Does anyone have any idea where Brushy's grandfather, Joseph came from and where he went? I found the same land records as most people, but zero death or burial records in Texas. I have records that say he came from Virginia/West Virginia, but no solid records for that either.
I apologize in advanced if this is the wrong place to ask these questions. I am not a genealogist, but I am a researcher and coming up empty this early is making me look really, really bad. Any help or even a point in the right direction would be so appreciated.
Thanks, Nichole
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Post by nmjames on Feb 4, 2018 0:21:37 GMT -5
xxnikkixx
I can help you but don't want to post it on here. I will need to go back through my files but I have Brushys family line. You can PM me and I will answer you.
Thanks, nmjames
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 4, 2018 14:37:01 GMT -5
Nichole, If you accept the story told by Brushy Bill as the truth, his birth name was William Henry Roberts; his parents were J. H. "Wild Henry" Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn of Kentucky, and his grandfather was Ben Roberts. His claimed birth was 31 Dec 1859 near Buffalo Gap, Texas. No credible records have been found to support that date or those relationships.
If you are an experienced genealogist, you believe the birth name of Brushy Bill Roberts, alias Billy the Kid, was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 Aug 1879 in Sebastian County, Arkansas, to Henry Oliver Roberts (18 May 1852 - 21 March 1924) and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson (24 Aug 1856 - 29 Aug 1924). Henry Oliver Roberts was the son of Joseph Roberts (1793 - 1858) of Virginia and Rachael Henson (11 Aug 1828 - 3 October 1863). They were married 28 July 1844 in Rusk County, Texas. After the death of Joseph Roberts, Rachael Henson married Matthew Russell Birdwell 8 April 1859 in Rusk County. Following the paper trails of individuals prior to the 1850 census is more difficult, since only the head of household was identified in census records. Joseph Roberts was probably the son of Alexander Roberts (28 May 1773 - 24 Nov 1851) and Sarah Shepherd (20 July 1776 - 12 Apr 1850).
More information is available about the family groups of Joseph Roberts and Rachel Henson, and Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson.
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Post by xxnikkixx on Feb 4, 2018 16:34:08 GMT -5
Nichole, If you accept the story told by Brushy Bill as the truth, his birth name was William Henry Roberts; his parents were J. H. "Wild Henry" Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn of Kentucky, and his grandfather was Ben Roberts. His claimed birth was 31 Dec 1859 near Buffalo Gap, Texas. No credible records have been found to support that date or those relationships. If you are an experienced genealogist, you believe the birth name of Brushy Bill Roberts, alias Billy the Kid, was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 Aug 1879 in Sebastian County, Arkansas, to Henry Oliver Roberts (18 May 1852 - 21 March 1924) and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson (24 Aug 1856 - 29 Aug 1924). Henry Oliver Roberts was the son of Joseph Roberts (1793 - 1858) of Virginia and Rachael Henson (11 Aug 1828 - 3 October 1863). They were married 28 July 1844 in Rusk County, Texas. After the death of Joseph Roberts, Rachael Henson married Matthew Russell Birdwell 8 April 1859 in Rusk County. Following the paper trails of individuals prior to the 1850 census is more difficult, since only the head of household was identified in census records. Joseph Roberts was probably the son of Alexander Roberts (28 May 1773 - 24 Nov 1851) and Sarah Shepherd (20 July 1776 - 12 Apr 1850). More information is available about the family groups of Joseph Roberts and Rachel Henson, and Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson. This is the information I have as well, but the records show that Sarah Shepherd and Alexander Roberts were born years after the birth of Joseph, in 1797. And sadly, I am not an experienced genealogist. I am a researcher/fact checker for less interesting and easier to find things.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 4, 2018 17:17:20 GMT -5
Nicole, A family tree on Ancestry.com has the following information:
Joseph Roberts, b. 1797, VA, father - Alexander Roberts, b. 28 May 1773 mother - Sarah Shepherd, b. 20 July 1776
paternal grandfather - Joseph Alexander Roberts, b. 1 Jan 1748 (he would have been about 31 when Joseph Roberts was born.) paternal grandmother - Elizabeth Clements, b. 1 Jan 1740 (she would have been about 37 when Joseph Roberts was born.)
I do not see a conflict between the birth year of Joseph Roberts and the birth years of his parents if these dates are correct.
Information found in Ancestry.com varies from treasure to trash, and should never be accepted as fact without verification by a second source. There is no way to tell if this information about the parents of Joseph Roberts is correct.
maternal grandfather - Augustine Shepherd, b. 5 Oct 1734 maternal grandmother - Sarah Shelton, b. 1732
A professional genealogist MIGHT be able to conclusively identify the parents and grandparents of Joseph Roberts and Sarah Shepherd from wills, land records, cemetery records.
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Post by xxnikkixx on Feb 4, 2018 19:22:12 GMT -5
Oh shoot, I'm sorry. I meant marriage year. The records I have state that they were married 20 Feb 1797, but Joseph was born 1792/3, although there seems to be little solid proof that his birth date has been recorded correctly. I spoke with a professional genealogist from the Daughters of the Republic of Texas and other than land records for Joseph and that is of little help. In fact, I can find little to no proof that Joseph Roberts is even Joseph Roberts. I'm starting to think they were criminals living under the radar.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 4, 2018 21:02:55 GMT -5
Nicole, Census records after 1840, vital records, land records, tax records, cemetery records, probate records, and wills are useful in determining family groups and approximate ages of the individuals. Credible, reliable information in the pre-1850 time period is difficult to find, if it even exists. The life of Oliver Pleasant Roberts and his parents can be traced through census records at 10 year intervals.
Evidence indicates that Joseph Roberts was in Rusk County. His son, Virgil Alexander Roberts, was on the tax list in 1869, and enumerated on the 1870 census of Rusk County.
Good luck on your search.
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xs59
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Post by xs59 on Feb 8, 2018 3:06:19 GMT -5
This forum has apparently become awfully quiet. No discussion of the new tintype which surfaced in November 2017? Which has apparently even been accepted by the Smithonian according to their homepage? The tintype most certainly features Pat Garrett. I don't know if it has been generally accepted, yet, that it also shows Billy the Kid. If correct, the guy who bought it for 10 dollars on a flea market could sell it for millions! Pat Garret and BtK on the same picture? Holy cow! That would be some find! And it would be the clearest existing picture, yet, of BtK - and it should also put to rest the discussion if Brushy Bill might've been BtK. The guy on the tintype is clearly a different person than Brushy. I always felt that there are marked differences between Brushy and the Kid. Young Brushy had fairly dark and very straight hair, while the Kid had lighter and slightly wavy hair. The eyes and the size of the mouth are also subtly different. The Kid's eyebrows also have a different slant, which gives the Kid's face a more open expression. These are subtle nuances which might not be picked up by a computer analysis. The human brain has an extraordinary ability to analyse the human face, and the problem with the well known and historically accepted iconic tintype is, that it is so blurry and therefore allows all sorts of interpretations. If the newly discussed tintype is legit (I haven't heard, yet, that it has been generally accepted) we would finally have a very clear picture of the Kid's face. This board is apparently the only surving Brushy Bill/Billy the Kid discussion forum by now - which might tell us that this discussion has become somewhat marginal by now. That said, Wayne Land has hosted a very interesting discussion over many years. Thanks for that! A lot of interesting historical facts have been gathered by various members. And that Brushy Bill was probably not identical with the Kid doesn't mean there aren't legitimate questions and problems concerning the offial and historically accepted account of Billy's death. And Brushy did undeniably have a resemblance to the Kid. What I find endlessly fascinating: why did he embark on this mission in the first place? Was it his closeness to the alleged Jesse James imposter? The story of the two old men, who both claimed to be two of the most iconical outlaws of the Old West is a psychologically fascinating story, no matter what. There's more to it than just the question of identity. The story deserves to be told.
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xs59
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Post by xs59 on Feb 8, 2018 3:43:20 GMT -5
There's a history of trying to pin down the identity of various outlaws by comparing existing photographic images. The best case can probably be made for Etta Place (girlfriend of The Sundance Kid) having been identical with the cattle rustler Ann Bassett. We have high quality photographic images of Ann Bassett and Etta Place which have been generally accepted as authentic. And on that evidence alone it should be declared that the pictures show the same woman. According to a computer analysis there are even very subtle matching details, which aren't readily apparent for the naked eye. The probability that the two pictures show different women is very, very low. And yet - there seems to be historical evidence dating from the early 1900's which apparently contradicts the idea that Ann Bassett and Etta Place were the same woman. Ann Bassett has left historical records (marriage certificate and arrest) which place her in the US, while Etta Place supposedly was at the same time with the Sundance Kid in Argentina. So, have they had the similarity of identical twins - or are the historians wrong? In this instance I tend to side with the evidence of the pictures. Etta Place might not have been with the Sundance Kid in Argentina anymore. The only other possibiity is that the picture which allegedly shows Ann Basset has been misidentified for some reason and is just another picture of Etta Place. I'm not familiar enough with this case for making an informed guess.
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xs59
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Post by xs59 on Feb 8, 2018 4:35:16 GMT -5
A quick net search revealed that the new picture has apparently been generally accepted as showing the true images not only of the Kid and Pat Garrett, but also of "Dirty" Dave Rudabaugh. On the back of the tintype is Garrett's authentic signature. The date of the tintype is 1880. The big question is of course why Garrett was posing with a bunch of outlaws months before he arrested the Kid and Rudabaugh at Stinking Springs... if this has been discussed elsewhere, I apologize. I couldn't find a threat which discusses this new development. Btw, there are conflicting versions re: Billy's miraculous escape from the Lincoln jailhouse after his conviction. Is the popular narrative that someone placed a gun for him in the outhouse, a myth? If so, how did he escape? Did he slip out of his cuffs, overpowered deputy Bell and grabbed Bell's gun, as the Wikipedia version declares? Or are there other possibilities? Both theories sound a bit far fetched. It's hard to believe that the outhouse hasn't been monitored. It was well known after all that Billy had still a lot of sympathizers and was prone to daring escapes. Also, it was known that he had small hands. Could they really find no secure cuffs for Billy?
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Post by MissyS on Feb 8, 2018 4:56:38 GMT -5
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xs59
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Post by xs59 on Feb 8, 2018 5:08:57 GMT -5
MissyS, thanks a lot. I will check it out. I have been on and off the forum for years. While I didn't comment that often (although sometimes just as a guest) i tried to follow the various threads. The forum has changed quite a bit since I first came here. And again, Wayne has hosted such an interesting discussion. Was well worth following it.
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Post by MissyS on Feb 8, 2018 5:54:48 GMT -5
xs59, I truely agree with you about your point about Billy getting a hold of a gun from the outhouse, there's some accounts that said Bell had his gone in his holster when he died and some people believe Billy took Bell's gun, the outhouse you would think would be watched, also it's interesting about what was written in Paco Anaya's book " I buried Billy" there's a mention that Billy had gotten a hold if some poison and had it while in prison hidden on him and was intending on using it on himself to avoid hanging or maybe on his guards, I read somewhere that after Billy got loose he threw Ollingers rifle on the ground and then the poison and said something like "I won't need this anymore". According to Anaya Billy had told Anaya about having the poison after his escape, I don't know if he really had poison but makes me wonder if someone could have slipped that to him via the outhouse as well? If it's true?
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Post by MissyS on Feb 8, 2018 9:10:05 GMT -5
xs59 That photo Wayne did an overlay of the Dedrick tintype to the Billy in it and he said it didn't match up, also the heights seem wrong Garrett looks to be the same height as the others and so does Billy's height as well. But if it's being accepted as the real deal then apparently there's enough promenance for it to convince the experts? Glad you came back to the board, I can believe Garrett may have posed for a photo with them after he arrested them but If its the group from stinking spring I'v seen a picture of Billy Wilson and none of those look like him.
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Post by moescupcakes on Mar 15, 2019 19:20:12 GMT -5
Is there any audio of Brushy Bill...…..I'd love to hear his voice.
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