Gun or no gun? That is the question.

[Wayne Land]

I'm curious. On July 14, 1881 some poor soul was shot down at Pete Maxwell's in Fort Sumner. How many of you believe that person had a gun in his hand at the time?

I'll answer my own question and then let's see if anyone else has an opinion.

I don't believe Billy (Barlow or Bonney) had a gun in his hand for several reasons. Poe said he was buttoning up his pants as he approached the building and I just don't see how he could have been carrying a knife and a gun and doing that at the same time. More importantly, I don't believe Poe and/or McKinney would have allowed him to walk into Pete's room with a gun in his hand knowing Pat Garrett was sitting in there in the dark. They would have been shouting "freeze" or maybe firing at him.

So what does it mean if there was no gun. It means there was a cover up. It means Poe and McKinney and Garrett did not tell it the way it really happened.

What do you all think?

[susan]

I do not think that Billy had a gun. My question is how did Pat Garrett know that Billy would walk into Pete's bedroom? That seems very strange to me. What does the coroner's jury report say about where Billy was shot (in the heart or where)? It just does not make sense the way it was written.

[montanas]

I don't think he had a gun simply because the gun they said he had was not the gun Billy was known to use. He used 44's and the one he was said to be carrying that night was a 41 self cocker. I realize there is at least one report that says he had recently acquired a 41 caliber double action from I believe a sheep herder. But if I'm on the run from the law I'm going to be carrying what I'm most familiar with, know I'm good with, and what has proven itself reliable time and time again. If a gun was there, I believe it was planted by Garret.

[mckinley412]

I think there was a gun because Siringo talks about it being auctioned. Could have been planted by Garrett though. If the Kid was killed then there was a gun, it would be like someone feeling naked without a watch at this point. If Barlow was killed maybe he carried one, maybe not. Billy (Barlow) was shot in the chest to the left of the heart I believe. I want to believe it happened on the back porch but there are several parts of the original version that just ring true. Especially the part where Poe yells "My God! You've just shot the wrong man!" Heehee.

[nmjames]

Wayne,

I think you need to read Garrett's and Poe's books. Poe said that "it seemed to me that he was fastening his trousers as he came toward me." Poe sat on the edge of the porch in the samll open gateway and McKinney sqatted on the outside of the fench. Poe stated that Billy came to almost within arm's length of where he sat before he saw Poe because he was partially concealed form his view. Poe also thought it was Maxwell or some one staying at Maxwell's house and did not think it was Billy. When Billy saw Poe and McKinney, he covered me with his six-shooter as quick as lightning. I don't know if you have ever looked down the barrel of a gun, I know I have and I had a gun on me. Poe did the only thing he could do. He told him they were not there to hurt him and didn't go for his gun. If he or McKinney had, Billy would have shot them. Another thing is they all thought they heard three shots that night and I feel they did. I think Billy got off a shot that hit the head board. Garrett kept the .41 Colt Thunderer and it was later sold to Billy Burt in Lincoln. I have a copy of the document where Garrett was told to put it up for sale.

The other thing that Brushy people keep saying is what Poe said. Pat, the Kid would not come to this place; you have shot the wrong man. Poe did say that but here is the rest of the statement. Garrett said, That was the kid that came in there onto me, and I think I have got him. Garrett seemed to be in doubt himself as to whom he had shot, but quickly spoke up and said, I am sure that was him, for I know his voice too well to be mistaken, This remark of Garrett's relieved me of considerable apprehension. He said a lot more but you need to read it. Don't you also think that when the different people saw Billy and reacted as they did, Poe being a lawman would have known it was in fact Billy?

Another thing that Brushy people like to say is Billy was placed in the carpenter shop and that the inquest said that they went to a room in Maxwell's house. Maxwell owned the carpenter's shop, it was a room so don't you think they may have said they went to room in Maxwell's house?

In saying all of this, my answer is Billy did have a gun on him that night. It was a Colt .41 Thunderer that he had traded a Chisum cook for down on the Pecos because Billy had small hands and liked the feel of the pistol. I am sure he still had a .44 Colt with him also but the Thunderer was a smaller frame pistol and he didn't want to put his holster back on and stuck the pistol in his pants. This might be why Poe said it seemed like Billy was fastening his trousers.

[Wayne Land]

"Poe also thought it was Maxwell or some one staying at Maxwell's house and did not think it was Billy"

Whether you believe Poe had ever seen Billy before that night or not, he had to have at least had a description of him and he knew they were there looking for Billy. It makes no sense for Poe to think it was someone other than Billy unless it was indeed someone else.

"Garrett kept the .41 Colt Thunderer and it was later sold to Billy Burt in Lincoln. I have a copy of the document where Garrett was told to put it up for sale. "

So where is the gun now? Something of that much historic value would not have just disappeared.

"don't you think they may have said they went to room in Maxwell's house? "

Was the carpenter shop part of Maxwell's house as in "the same building" or was it a separate building? I've always kind of assumed it was separate. Jesus Silva claimed he picked up the body and moved it onto a table. Actually that whole business of where the body was when the jury viewed it and all doesn't mean much I think. Wherever it was or was not located at any point doesn't, at least to me, suggest a whole lot about whether it really was Billy The Kid's body.

For a moment let's assume Billy did in fact have a gun and got the drop on the deputies before moving into the bedroom. Why then didn't the deputies call out to Garrett to warn him? When he started moving into Maxwell's bedroom they just let him without any further comment to him or to Garrett? I find that hard to believe.

Also, when Billy asked them in Spanish "Quien Es?" they answered in english, "We're not here to hurt you". Billy then asks again "Quien Es". Why did he continue speaking in Spanish? The real Billy The Kid would have answered english with english?

[mckinley412]

I really feel that was Brushy was the Kid but try to stay unbiased and open-minded (even tho I sometimes tease and take up for Brushy with little sly remarks). The .41 caliber is in a museum somewhere, but I'll let nmjames or someone elaborate on that, I would like to see it, although I've had little interest in it in the past but I'm gonna be in the area and it would be fun to see the legendary gun (if it's the same) so please refresh me on its location. I had to read some of Poe's story again to see if Wayne really hit the nail on the head and sure enough Billy is still speaking Spanish a fourth and fifth time after being spoke to in English. Today is one of those days where I have no doubts about Brushy again. Well... I guess Barlow ran to the back porch, Idk. Another thing I noticed in Poe's story is that the residents were suspicious when Poe was in town so by the end of the night everyone would have told Billy there were suspicious gringos in town and Billy would not have stayed so adamant about speaking Spanish. Poe said he had a description of the kid who isn't even wearing a hat but Poe still doesn't recognize him. Before all of this Garrett doesn't believe the Kid is there but he says he knows a girl the Kid will be sure to visit so they decide to spy on the house, not Maxwell's house as far as I can tell but probably Celsa's, Idk but Poe says they watch the house from the orchard. There is a map of Sumner in Capture of Billy the Kid that Charlie Foor made. The orchard is across the parade ground from a house/room where Foor says Billy left his Hat, Coat, and boots, which matches description of the guy Poe says he saw. They see nothing and decide to leave taking a maze like route to stop by Maxwell's. So this is at least reveals that he was not expected to be there or be visiting Paulita. Somebody comes that is unexpected and even though it is likely Billy has been told about the strange gringo-Poe in town, the person comes in socks, no shirt, and speaking Spanish.

[nmjames]

Wayne:

You nor I were there that night and you are trying to guess what Poe and others thought. I can only go by research I did on John Poe and I am talking about going all the way to Fort Griffin, TX. doing research. Spending hours in Roswell at the Federial building looking through Micro Film, the county court house going throgh records, going through newspapers in Roswell and other places researching the man. The one thing that keep coming up was how honest Poe was. Even in his business records it shows what kind of man Poe was, so in saying all of this, since I was not there nor you. I will stay with what Poe said. Poe said he had never seen Billy and so on. Now for Billy answering in Spanish. I look at it different. He saw two men late in the night that were speaking English. He is wanted and I would guess he wanted to make them think he was Spanish.

Why didn't the deputies call out to Garrett. Again I can only guess like you. Poe did talk to Billy I feel for two reasons. One he had the drop on them and he wanted to let Garret hear them talking. If Poe had said Pat it's Billy don't you think Billy would have started shooting? Again we can only guess.

Lincoln County sold the .41 Colt to Billy Burt. It is said that Billy Burt sold the gun. (I will have to look it up.) There was a museum in Arkansas that stated they had it. Then there was a break-in at the Lincoln Court house and several guns were taken. In the newspaper article it just states one of Billy Pistol was taken.

The carpenter shop was not part of the house. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want a dead man left on my bedroom floor or in the house. The carpenter's shop would have been OK if it were me. When Bell and Olinger were killed, they moved them to the house or shop out back. They could have put them in the courthouse but didn't.

The fact is the Justice of the Peace was called, he named a jury and they looked at the body, be it in the house of carpenter's shop. They said it was Billy the Kid. There were a number people there and they said it was Billy. Garrett wrote a letter or statement to Gov. Wallace, took a copy of the coroner's report to Santa Fe. Justice of the Peace Alejandro Seguro wrote his report and filed it in Las Vegas, NM. There is a 1950 news paper article that states some 20 years ago a man by the name of Abbott an employe of the state land office in Santa Fe, found the orginal copy of the coroner's jury dated July 15, 1881, It has the document translated in the paper. When I purchased a copy from Santa Fe, they sent me the one in English. I called and they told me they had the one in Spanish.

Thain if I may answer your post. No one knows where the .41 Colt is. I wish we did. I don't think back in the late 1800s or even in the early 1900s people thought anything about how much the gun or pictures would sell for today. I think the gun you are thinking about is the one in the Museum in Ruidoso that was traded for the .41 Colt. Thain you need to get Morrison's book out and read it all the way through again. I don't put any trust in books that were wrote after Morrison's. When they started finding out all the mistakes Brushy made they had to do something to sell books, If Brushy had stayed with the history of Billy no one would have taken him serious (Not many did anyway.) He had to change the story, make up a different birth place, make up his family and learn something about the LCW. He had help in doing all of it. I don't know if it was J. Frank Dalton or Morrison or both.

One question I would like to ask Do any of you know the scope of the Lincoln County War? Do you know that Charles Goodnight, J.C. Lea and many others were working against Billy the Kid and wanted him gone or killed and his so called gang broke up or killed? Poe was sent to New Mexico to stop the cattle stealing. Poe reported back to the Canadian River Cattlemen in late 1881. He wrote a letter to Charles Goodnight dated July 10, 1917 telling him the story of the death of Billy the Kid. Do you think that they would have pulled such a thing as letting Billy go with these type men behind them? I don't think so!

[alessandro]

nmjames, if Poe recognized Billy and talked to him, why did he tell Garrett "you have shot the wrong man!" when Garrett shot him?

[nmjames]

alessandro:

You can find the answers in John Poe's book but to answer your question, John Poe said he did not know or recognize Billy. He stated that he had never seen Billy the Kid nor Maxwell. Poe stated that this placed him at and extreme disadvantage as to what followed. He said that Maxwell's was the one place in Fort Sumner that he had considered above suspicion of harboring the Kid. He said he was off his guard and thought the man approaching was either Maxwell or some guest of his. Poe said that upon Billy seeing him, he covered him with his six-shooter. Billy backed into the door of Maxwell's room. After Garrett shot Billy Poe states that Garrett came out, brushing against me as he passed. He stood by me close to the wall at the side of the door and said to me. "That was the Kid that came in there onto me, and I think I have got him." I said. "Pat, the Kid would not come to this place, you have shot the wrong man." (This is all in Poe's book.)

Poe states, upon me saying this, Garrett seemed to be in doubt himself as to whom he had shot, but quickly spoke up and said, "I am sure that was him, for I know his voice too well to be mistaken." Poe said, This remark of Garrett's relieved him of considerable apprehension, because he thought that someone whom they did not want had been killed. Poe said that upon examining the body, we found it to be that of Billy the Kid.

There is much more to this. Poe's book is a good place to start to see what he really said and thought.

nmjames

[alessandro]

nmjames:
this is what you said above: "Why didn't the deputies call out to Garrett. Again I can only guess like you. Poe did talk to Billy I feel for two reasons. One he had the drop on them and he wanted to let Garret hear them talking. If Poe had said Pat it's Billy don't you think Billy would have started shooting? Again we can only guess."
According to you he realized he was Billy but didn't shout otherwise Billy started to shoot.
In my opinion both Garrett's and Poe's version doesn't make sense.
Garrett and 2 deputies stayed almost one day in the town. Is it possible Billy didn't know anything? Didn't he have an informer? He was a fugitive, I think he should have someone who could help him.
Didn't he recognize the 2 deputies? Even if they were new to the town, 2 well armed english speaking man couldn't be other than 2 lawmen. And why he didn't run away instead to enter the house where other lawmen could be waiting for him?
All the story seems so strange to me. Billy was completely reckless.

[alessandro]

Only one correction: I have just read the story from John Poe. Only Poe were in Fort Sumner that day because the other 2 were both known. But he met many people and someone was suspicious about him. Is it possible no one reported this to the kid?

[kerry]

Poe said a gun was levelled at him that night and afterwards it was cross referenced by several people as a self -cocker because such a gun would have been quite a novelty in 1881 New Mexico...John Poe must have been everything Pat Garrett was supposed to be - a very fine upstanding lawman an citizen throughout his life.. admired by Charles Goodnight and elected Sherriff of Lincoln County in 1885 after defeating Pat Garrett's choice - James Dolan..

[mckinley412]

there is a gun that was avaible to look at because someone just asked me to find the source about a year ago and you can gooogle it. it has some history.

[Elwood]

Oct 27, 2017 16:51:03 GMT -5 susan said:

I do not think that Billy had a gun. My question is how did Pat Garrett know that Billy would walk into Pete's bedroom? That seems very strange to me. What does the coroner's jury report say about where Billy was shot (in the heart or where)? It just does not make sense the way it was written.

Keep in mind that Pat Garrett's wife, Apolinaria Gutierrez Garrett (1861-1936) was the sister of Celsa Gutierrez, supposedly the Kid's girlfriend, but also the wife of Saval / Sabal Gutierrez; who lived across the way from the Maxwell home. Various scenarios have been theorized over the years, as to a possible "set-up". Info could have been exchanged without text messaging back in those days. One newspaper indicated that "a little bird" provided the info (of the Kid's whereabouts) to Pat and Company.



The March 2020 issue of the WWHA (Wild West History Association) Journal has an article by one of the direct descendants of Celsa Gutierrez. Info will continue to "unfold", and one day we will know "the rest of the story", as Paul Harvey used to say ...