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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 14, 2017 10:02:03 GMT -5
When I started this message board there were three other boards I'd been on that featured discussions about Billy The Kid. One of those was supportive of Brushy Bill's story but did not go so far as to endorse it as being truthful. The other two made it very clear not only that they didn't believe Brushy but went out of their way to discourage any discussion of him. One of those actually banned me from participation because I didn't accept their anti Brushy rhetoric. So, finally, I decided to start my own message board that would proudly claim Brushy as being the real Billy The Kid and find out once and for all if there were others out there who thought like me and wanted to share their ideas.
The result? These years later we have the only truly active discussion board about Billy The Kid, Brushy or no Brushy. A couple of the other boards have been shut down and the ones that are still running have very minimal participation with posts occurring at the rate of one or two per month at the most.
What does it mean? While we have not yet uncovered the "smoking gun" that proves Brushy's claim, we have stirred enough interest that we have, in a certain context, "won" the debate. We've won on the question of whether Brushy's story is worth listening to and investigating, and I want to thank our membership. As more and more people sign up, we will soon top 300 members. We have well over 100 guests visiting each day and as many as 8 or 10 members participating each day.
Thank you all so very much for proving my efforts worthwhile. Keep on visiting and posting and one day, maybe we'll find that smoking gun. If it proves Brushy was a fraud, I'll say so and apologize for helping to lead so many down the wrong path. If it proves he was who he said he was, and this board helps get us there, then it will be one of the crowning achievements of my life.
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Post by mikegolfpro on Jun 14, 2017 13:17:31 GMT -5
Thank you Mr. Land for creating this website. It is a great place to come to everyday to read all the interesting facts and stories regarding Brushy Bill and Billy the Kid, whether your pro Brushy or not. I love studying our nations history and whether or not we will ever find the truth, it is still a fascinating part of our history. I hope we do find the truth in what actually happened to Billy the Kid, whether he died in 1881 or not. I would just like to find the truth to the life. Every member on here that I have read has very interesting and poignant things to say about this subject which keeps me coming back. Thank you again, Mr. Land!
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 16, 2017 7:55:37 GMT -5
Wayne, it's a very awesome thing you have started here, thank you. I also feel the debate has been won. The losing side should at least get some kind of 'participation' award. Thank you Texas Truth-Teller for always being there to keep things stirred up, it would not be as fun if everyone was in agreement so your input has been invaluable. I only wish I would have started this site first so I could get all the credit.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 16, 2017 21:57:13 GMT -5
Thain, Billy the Kid’s death in 1881 is an accepted historical fact, although some skeptics remain. Trying to prove the credibility of Brushy Bill’s story is a monumental task. He named none of his associates after 1881. Indian Jim? Meaningless. Mountain Bill? Meaningless. Boyle replaced Mountain Bill? Meaningless. Brushy left no paper trail. He named parents of whom there is no record. He named a cousin Ollie Roberts of whom there is no record. He named a cousin who was a half sister of Oliver P. Roberts. He claimed he had a cousin in the Ranger force below Del Rio, but provided no name. He named Billy Barlow as Garrett’s victim, but even Sonnichsen said that was the weakest link in Brushy Bill’s story. Billy Barlow was apparently a name known only to Brushy Bill. Brushy Bill gave his date of birth as 26 August 1878 when he registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts; the same birth date as Oliver P. Roberts according to Geneva Roberts Pittmon, a niece of Oliver P. Roberts.
He married Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison not as William Henry Roberts, but as Oliver, or Ollie Roberts. He bought and sold land in Arkansas, not as William Henry Roberts, but as O. P. Roberts.
Brushy Bill’s knowledge of the details of the Lincoln County war is the most impressive part of his story. That information, however, could have been gleaned from “The Saga of Billy the Kid”, published in 1926. Brushy Bill allowed Morrison only a brief look at three of his notebooks, but not a real examination. Those notebooks were not found after Brushy Bill’s death. Could it be because Brushy Bill read “The Saga of Billy the Kid”, and kept notes about details of the Lincoln County in those 3 missing notebooks that he later related to Morrison?
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 17, 2017 0:56:31 GMT -5
TTT, We've already proven elsewhere in this group that he didn't get his info from SAGA. Burns did a lot of research! Brushy's matches where Burns is right but when Burns is wrong, Brushy is right. Just read what he says, and look at all of the other books written on the Kid. There is no way they could have come out with a book in 1955 that is more accurate than all the books that came out before and since...and I can back that up but I'll wait until you ask.There is also no way they, Brushy, whoever, could have been so detailed with things that weren't very well known or been discovered and then decide to change his origin completely and still never been proven wrong. I am half way through a book of articles by Rasch and he is already quoted Morrison once as discovering something. I hate to say it because I'm not one to believe in fairy tales either but you are missing out on the second greatest story ever told. Brushy is the real deal even though he isn't everything you wanted the Kid to be. The Kid was a real person, he had faults like anyone. There are a few minor things that no author could have made up even if they had access to every single thing on the Kid, ask me, one being that as Gale Cooper so eloquently put it that if Brushy was the Kid he would have never referred to himself as an outlaw which Brushy said twice in a ROW "I wasn't no outlaw" I just spent 700 dollars now on rare Billy the Kid books and what not so I'm hoping I can shed new light on a few things as I have time to read. (I read and do other stuff too) I hope we get a chance to discuss this in person instead of me always typing off my phone.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 17, 2017 13:04:38 GMT -5
Thain, Thanks for responding. I agree that Burns did a lot of research. I fail to see any proof that Brushy Bill didn't get his info from SAGA.
I agree that Billy the Kid was a real person. He lived in difficult times. If history is correct, he fought after his friend was murdered, and not because he was a born killer.
These are two serious discrepancies in Brushy Bill's story. Brushy Bill signed his WWI draft registration card as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, with a birth date of 26 August 1879. There is no acceptable explanation for using the name and birth date of Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson.
Catherine McCarty and William Antrim were married 1 March 1873 in Santa Fe. Henry McCarty was a witness. Brushy Bill said he was in Carlton, Texas, at his father's home in 1873.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 17, 2017 21:00:05 GMT -5
Draft card- He was assuming his cousin's identity. Wedding-. Brushy also said he was at the World's Fair in 1894 before someone corrected him and said it was 1904 and he had no reason to lie about that. You're letting an old man's foggy memory blind you from the truth. Billy was a good guy and he got to live out the rest of his life.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 17, 2017 23:51:50 GMT -5
Darn if I'm not getting really tired of pointing this out but did Brushy say he was in Carlton, TX on "March 1, 1873" or did he just say 1873? Last time I checked there were 365 days in the year 1873 and 364 of them were not March 1st.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 18, 2017 17:02:26 GMT -5
Thain, I know you are dedicated to finding conclusive proof that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, and I admire your persistence.
“Draft card- He was assuming his cousin's identity.”
That is the simple explanation. It does not fit the facts presented by Brushy. He said he had a cousin, Ollie Roberts, born about 1867, who was killed in the Indian Territory. If he assumed Ollie’s identity, he would have said he was born about 1867 rather than 1879. Memory loss is not an excuse for this discrepancy, for this was information recorded my Morrison.
If he was assuming the identity of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson (Brushy Bill said his step-mother was Elizabeth Ferguson), there is no satisfactory explanation for the abrupt disappearance of Oliver P. Roberts from Van Zandt County.
“Brushy also said he was at the World's Fair in 1894 before someone corrected him and said it was 1904 and he had no reason to lie about that.”
I may have overlooked Brushy’s statement that he was at the World’s Fair in 1894, or any correction thereof. The affidavit of Robert E. Lee does state that Brushy Bill rode in Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show in Chicago in 1893. The World’s Columbian Exposition was a world’s fair held in Chicago in 1893 to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus’ arrival in the New World in 1492.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 18, 2017 22:19:16 GMT -5
Brushy didn't say he had a cousin born about 1867. Or did he? It wasn't in quotes was it? Did the author say it? Idk. Something to think about. His story was hard to follow. He was hard to understand. He jumped around and repeated things. Imagine being the interviewer and then the author. Imagine being an attorney. Traveling to Texas back and forth and taking Brushy all through NM. I go by his quotes. And still his story holds up better than any book at the time and better than some Now. Because I can look at West of Billy the Kid and point out mistakes and things that don't make sense. But nobody can do that with Brushy quotes. And now everyone wants to pretend they found out Billy was right handed. It's sad. Because the tintype is reversed. So sad. I don't want Brushy to be the Kid. I just want truth. And with the stuff I read it all points to he had many friends on his side, ones that would risk prosecution, I'm still finding more, thanks to old and new researchers, and I hope to contribute myself. He never killed a Hispanic, a native, he killed a man called The Indian according to George Coe. My time will come but it isn't now. I can still solve this. Not sure if I have the passion to follow through with it. I don't even want to. I just truly love reading about Billy the Kid.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 19, 2017 15:15:58 GMT -5
"Brushy didn't say he had a cousin born about 1867. Or did he? It wasn't in quotes was it? Did the author say it? Idk. "
Thain, I also feel truth is most important. Did Bushy Bill say he had a cousin, or not? The last paragraph before the beginning of Chapter 1, Alias BTK: , "It may be so. But before we talk about that,let's let Brushy Bill tell his own story." That implies, but does not guarantee, that Brushy Bill said he had a cousin, Ollie Roberts. How else would Morrison or Sonnichsen know his cousin's name, approximate birth year, that he ran away from home, and te approximate date? How would he know where Brushy Bill took Ollie's belongings?
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Post by manhunter on Oct 15, 2017 12:56:50 GMT -5
Wayne,
I posted a new thread under the welcome section, but guess it should have been under the photos thread. Can you move it there?
Thanks
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 15, 2017 16:27:48 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller, I was saying that he was never quoted as saying his cousin was born in 67'. I'm not saying that he didn't say he had a cousin that ran away. But anyway, The World Fair was in Saint Louis in 1904 and I was referring to the short taped recording of Brushy Bill being interviewed. But he may have indeed meant the Chicago Columbus Exposition! But once he was corrected he basically agreed. Anyhow, this recording is a good example of how he was hard to understand. And he sounds older than 70 to me. The recording is on Facebook on the Brushy Bill Group. And the Brushy Bill Debunk Society, which it might be easier to find it on this one, because there isn't a whole lot of debunking going on there.
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Post by Hunter on Jul 10, 2018 16:37:44 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller, I was saying that he was never quoted as saying his cousin was born in 67'. I'm not saying that he didn't say he had a cousin that ran away. But anyway, The World Fair was in Saint Louis in 1904 and I was referring to the short taped recording of Brushy Bill being interviewed. But he may have indeed meant the Chicago Columbus Exposition! But once he was corrected he basically agreed. Anyhow, this recording is a good example of how he was hard to understand. And he sounds older than 70 to me. The recording is on Facebook on the Brushy Bill Group. And the Brushy Bill Debunk Society, which it might be easier to find it on this one, because there isn't a whole lot of debunking going on there. Yep, 1893 - 1894 Chicago World's Columbian Exposition. www.chicagotribune.com/news/history/ct-the-white-city-20170503-htmlstory.html#Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show chicagology.com/goldenage/goldenage117/wildwestshow/Program from Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show at the World’s Columbian Exposition, 1893
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valdezjohn843@gmail.com
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Post by valdezjohn843@gmail.com on Dec 19, 2021 15:11:00 GMT -5
When I started this message board there were three other boards I'd been on that featured discussions about Billy The Kid. One of those was supportive of Brushy Bill's story but did not go so far as to endorse it as being truthful. The other two made it very clear not only that they didn't believe Brushy but went out of their way to discourage any discussion of him. One of those actually banned me from participation because I didn't accept their anti Brushy rhetoric. So, finally, I decided to start my own message board that would proudly claim Brushy as being the real Billy The Kid and find out once and for all if there were others out there who thought like me and wanted to share their ideas. The result? These years later we have the only truly active discussion board about Billy The Kid, Brushy or no Brushy. A couple of the other boards have been shut down and the ones that are still running have very minimal participation with posts occurring at the rate of one or two per month at the most. What does it mean? While we have not yet uncovered the "smoking gun" that proves Brushy's claim, we have stirred enough interest that we have, in a certain context, "won" the debate. We've won on the question of whether Brushy's story is worth listening to and investigating, and I want to thank our membership. As more and more people sign up, we will soon top 300 members. We have well over 100 guests visiting each day and as many as 8 or 10 members participating each day. Thank you all so very much for proving my efforts worthwhile. Keep on visiting and posting and one day, maybe we'll find that smoking gun. If it proves Brushy was a fraud, I'll say so and apologize for helping to lead so many down the wrong path. If it proves he was who he said he was, and this board helps get us there, then it will be one of the crowning achievements of my life.
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