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Post by mckinley412 on Mar 25, 2017 20:39:18 GMT -5
Is there any history or provenance on the official Jesse photos? I'm not an expert on Jesse but it seems there is no history on this photo. Just like the Catherine McCarty photo that was real until the owner admitted it wasn't... I'm not talking about his death photos but why do people except the other ones as genuine. The hairlines between the death and alive photos don't match is why I ask. The death photo might be him and the alive photos might not be. Someone please tell me the provenance on the 'alive' photos.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 26, 2017 0:56:06 GMT -5
I'm glad to hear someone else state the somewhat obvious difference between the death photos and the live photos. Sorry, I don't know the provenance on any of the live photos.
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 9, 2017 18:16:49 GMT -5
To everyone: I can't find much provenance on the famous Jesse photo. The photo was discovered after J. Frank Dalton's death and verified by a granddaughter. There was a famous forger named Mark Hofmann. Supposedly he forged unknown Jesse James and Billy the Kid things plus more. If that is the case than the death photo of James could be Jesse or Dalton could be Jesse. I don't know. I'm not an expert on this subject but my suspicions have been somewhat confirmed. You would have to research signed Jesse Photo and or Mark Hofmann to get the details. I am also interested in hearing your thoughts and what you found as I probably won't research it in depth. I look forward to seeing what all of your input is. Thank you.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 10, 2017 18:08:46 GMT -5
mckinley412, if you are in the market for an AUTHENTIC Jesse James photo, BEWARE!! Lots of fake JWJ photos were offered on the Ellison Collection website before it was taken down. Many misidentified photos are included in "Jesse James Lived and Died in Texas", "The Truth About Jesse James", and "Jesse James - The Smoking Gun". Still more to be found in the RJ Pastore Collection.
Fake photos or real photos, the fact remains that the 1907 will of Zerelda Samuel directed that she be buried between her two dead sons, Archibald Peyton Samuel and Jesse W. James in the Baptist Cemetery at Kearney, County of Clay.
Easy to say that J. Frank Dalton, James Lafayette Courtney, Jeremiah James, John William James, Senator William Andrew Clark, et. al. was Jesse Woodson James. Impossible to prove since none of them were.
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 10, 2017 20:35:55 GMT -5
Okay. I'll bite. How do you know since nobody can even tell me what Jesse looked like for sure?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 10, 2017 22:38:36 GMT -5
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 10, 2017 23:39:51 GMT -5
"Fake photos or real photos, the fact remains that the 1907 will of Zerelda Samuel directed that she be buried between her two dead sons, Archibald Peyton Samuel and Jesse W. James in the Baptist Cemetery at Kearney, County of Clay"
If in 1907, both Frank and Jessie were still alive, would it be such a strange thing for her to request burial next to Archibald? And if she wanted to continue to protect her "living" son Jessie from the law, would it be so strange for her to request burial next to him?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 11, 2017 11:10:32 GMT -5
“If in 1907, both Frank and Jessie were still alive, would it be such a strange thing for her to request burial next to Archibald? And if she wanted to continue to protect her "living" son Jessie from the law, would it be so strange for her to request burial next to him?”
You deal in IFs and suppositions.
What is strange is that anyone can ignore facts found in the will of Zerelda Cole Samuel, and 1882 articles in Missouri newspapers about the death of Jesse James but accept the story that the death of Jesse James was a hoax. It is true that Jesse James had a split personality. As James Sears, he confessed on his deathbed in Colorado that he was really Jesse James. At the urging of the promoter, Orvus Lee Howk (also known as Jesse James III, grandson of Jesse James), J. Frank Dalton proclaimed to the world that he was the real Jesse James. John William James, western showman who ended up in a mental institution, said he was Jesse James and probably was the source of the hoax that Charles Bigelow was buried in Jesse’s coffin. Of course, no trace of either Charlie Bigelow or Billy Barlow has ever been found. James Lafayette Courtney of Missouri and Blevins, Texas, promoted as the real Jesse James in 3 books, served as a Union bugler, very different from serving with Quantrill’s guerrillas. The king of the conspiracy theories promoted Senator William Andrew Clark of Montana as Jesse James. Jeremiah James of Missouri was another alias of Jesse James.
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 11, 2017 12:00:36 GMT -5
TTT, why would I believe any photo is that of Jesse James. Do you understand what my question is? For one, the hairlines do not match on the death photos and the most famous Jesse photo, so it makes me wonder if they are the same person. I don't want to look at a bunch of pictures of Jesse James! I've seen them. If I don't know what proof or provenance there is on the photos what good would it do me to look at a photo and decide whether it is Jesse or not! Can't you understand what I'm asking. The only photo that I know of that has provenance is the death photo. Let's say that is him, okay... OKAY??? Now ....I want to know how we know what other photos are actually him. I want to say more but I don't want to confuse you. I just want to know which photo (other than the death photo) has the best provenance so that I know what he looked like when he was alive, okay? OKAY!!!
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 11, 2017 12:21:39 GMT -5
" It was obtained by Andrew MacKellar, Captain of the Cunard Line of the RMS Queen Mary from 1954 to 1959, from Calvin Tilden Owns, husband of Ethel Rose James (the granddaughter of Jesse James), who confirmed the authenticity of the signed photograph, which was bequeathed to her by Jesse James’ widow, Zee, as part of an inheritance. The photograph has been in private hands since it was purchased from Captain MacKellar in 1958." So far this is the best I could find. live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/on-the-block-only-known-jesse It says this excellent provenance but I just don't see it that way, it sounds more like he said, she said so pay me for it. Or maybe it is excellent provenance, either way it don't look the death bed photo. The reason some people commented on the site that it could be fake was because of an excellent forger named Mark Hofmann and also some said they don't believe Jesse would have signed his name. They are certain that Hofmann forged Billy the Kid and Jess items but they are not sure which. He is famous for forging Mormon documents and other western things. I don't mean to be too paranoid but I know damn well that gun that killed Jesse James that sold on the Sotheby's auction was fraudulent. But the world has to have a gun that killed Jesse so why wouldn't they also have to have a photo regardless of who it actually is.
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Post by Texas truth teller on Apr 11, 2017 13:13:17 GMT -5
Mckinley412, OKAY!!! You want to see the provenance of the photos accepted as authentic images of Jesse James. Maybe the desired provenance doesn't exist. If not, what does that mean? www.jessejames.org/scrap_bookThe two photos of Jesse James would seem to be authentic, since the descendants of Jesse's half -sister seem to believe they are pictures of Jesse.
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 11, 2017 20:15:05 GMT -5
Mckinley412, OKAY!!! You want to see the provenance of the photos accepted as authentic images of Jesse James. Maybe the desired provenance doesn't exist. If not, what does that mean? www.jessejames.org/scrap_bookThe two photos of Jesse James would seem to be authentic, since the descendants of Jesse's half -sister seem to believe they are pictures of Jesse. Descendants? I wonder why they believe that and I'm not being sarcastic. I really don't know. Descendants of a half sister, you say? Ok. But you asked me, 'If not, what does that mean?' I can answer that. It means that they are saying the famous photo is Jesse and the death photo is Jesse and that means they are wrong about one of them and they don't know which one they are wrong about which means we still don't know what Jesse James actually looked like because I can see the hairlines are completely different in those two photos. You can read the original newspaper article from 1875 which says Jesse was killed during a bank robbery, you can read all about how in 1879 he was killed again by a guy name Shepard and you can also read about how he was killed in 1882. In all three of these versions of his death, there is more holes than a scene of sidewinder snake trying to sneek a taste off Billy's swiss cheese sandwich while he sighting in his shotgun . Sssssss.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 11, 2017 22:19:12 GMT -5
"I can see the hairlines are completely different in those two photos."
I believe you are stating your opinion.
Do you believe that Jesse James was killed in 1882?
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 12, 2017 8:36:37 GMT -5
I don't think it's matter of opinion whether the hairlines are different, if you google Jesse James Death Pictures there is around 10 of them so you can really get a good idea of where the edge of the eye brow comes in relation to the hairline. At first I said, okay, maybe his hair is combed over and its creating an illusion that his hairline is closer to his eyebrow than it really is; but that isn't the case. Even if you blame the lighting on the 'alive' photo of him you can still draw an eyebrow on him and there is too much distance between the eyebrow and the hairline to be the guy in the death photo. Yesterday I saw a newspaper report 11 months after Jesse died and it was about a man who swore he saw Jesse alive and well and that the death was a hoax. I wouldn't say I believe he was or wasn't killed in 1882, but because of all the weird things like photos not matching and his mom saying it wasn't her son, etc. etc. I would say it is more likely he faked his death. They had a show on that somebody told me about and supposedly an FBI forensic face comparison specialist said J. Frank Dalton is not Jesse and he said Jeremiah James is not Jesse and he said THE GUY IN THE DEATH PHOTO IS ALSO NOT JESSE. N ow here is the problem and the reason why the FBI should just start coming to me if they want to figure stuff out, THEY DON'T KNOW IF THE PICTURE OF JESSE IS ACTUALLY JESSE! So how can they say J. Frank Dalton or Jeremiah James isn't Jesse or the death bed guy for that matter. All they should really be able to say is that none of the photos they are looking at match. okietreasurehunter.blogspot.com/2008/02/j-frank-dalton-jesse-james-or-not.htmlHere is a site I found that's talking about what I just wrote. Somehow they have assumed that the Alive photo is Jesse and that the death photo is not Jesse since the two are different. How do they decide that?! Do you see my logic? Where does anyone get off deciding which of the two is him and which isn't. I would think there is just as much provenance for the death photo if not more than the alive photo!!!. Keep in mind, it's possible that neither one of the pictures are Jesse James. Maybe he was like El Chivato, the Mexicans say he could turn himself into a coy-yo-tay and disappear.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 12, 2017 10:29:09 GMT -5
Jesse was. but he wasn't. Ideal topic for conspiracy nuts.
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