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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 6, 2016 2:39:41 GMT -5
Page 71 of ABTK Martine Able is quoted as she had not seen the Kid since before Garrett claimed he shot him. Yet in affidavit she allegedly swears she seen him before and afterwards. Like I've always said, I don't care if he was the Kid or not, I only seek the truth. This seems like one affidavit that needs to be tossed down the drain for now.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 6, 2016 23:01:13 GMT -5
mckinly412, That's another affidavit that belongs in the trash along with those of Robert E. Lee and Elbert DeWitt Travis. "Alias BtK", affidavit, paragraph 2. Martile was born in Cook (sic) County, Texas. Find A Grave Memorial# 121263674 for Martile Bilberry Henderson Abel, with obit. Find A Grave Memorial# 139534549 for John C. Abel (Proves both John C. Able and Martelia/Telia/Martile/Marthie Bilberry Henderson Able are both buried in Concordia Cemetery, El Paso, Texas. 1880 census of Lampasas County, Texas, microfilm page 345a, line 9 (Proves Martelia Bilberry Henderson Abel was born about 1871.) 1870 census of Cooke County, Texas, microfilm page 214a, line 16 (Proves the Bilberry family lived in Cooke County about a year before Martile's birth.)
Now, did a 10 year old girl living in Lampasas, Texas, ever see Billy the Kid at any time?
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 7, 2016 11:37:43 GMT -5
Billy the Kid traveled to Texas quite a bit. That being said J. Frank Dalton had affidavits also and I can see he was not Jesse from the hairline. That being said, as Missy pointed out, Pat Garrett's story should seriously be questioned. I doubt Paulita or Burns made up a lie that the she was there with Pat before the shooting. Pat's story has more wholes in it than Brushy's. I am still waiting for someone to find the video of theHispanic guy saying Billy died in Mexico. I wish I would have saved it.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 7, 2016 23:40:56 GMT -5
Mckinley412
Burns publishers lawyers, fearing being sued, forced Burns to rewrite much of Chapter 14 "A Belle of Old Fort Sumner". A good book on this you might want to read is American Mythmaker: Walter Noble Burns and the Legends of Billy the Kid by Mark J. Dworkin. (pages 29-34)
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 21, 2017 20:18:37 GMT -5
I read the book and I didn't get that from it. It appears to me she "adamantly" stated he and her were not sweethearts. I have read other things about it that suggested otherwise but I remember the book as it being an idea Burn's was stuck on.
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Post by Hunter on Jul 4, 2018 20:54:26 GMT -5
In the book "Alias Billy The Kid," the Affadavit in the back of Mrs. Martile Able, widow of John C. Able states that the last time she saw Wm. Bonney prior to 1950 was in 1902. In the affidavit I read it that her husband knew Wm. Bonney very well years before around Pecos, Texas and she probably met him years later when she and John were together perhaps before or after they married in 1898. Mrs. Ables more then likely heard many stories from her husband about his life and who he knew.
The only words in the affidavit that might be contradictry is that "John C. Ables brought Wm. Bonney to their house one day when he caught a horse for Bonney to ride out; that this affiant cooked a meal that day that he ate in hiding; that Bonney rode away on the horse, that the horse came back home after Bonney made his journey."
She probably wasn't there at the time being that she was under 10 years old, but her future husband was there and with Wm. Bonney. Mrs. Ables is stating the stories that her husband had told her and she also may have heard the two of them reminiscing about the old days in 1902 when she was 29 years old. Anyway, that's my take on it
Martelia DeMarville “Marthie” Bilberry Ables was born in 1873 and married John C. Ables in 1898 in Taylor Co., Texas. John C. Ables was 20 years older, being born in 1853, in San Antonio, Texas.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 4, 2018 23:08:55 GMT -5
Hunter, Although the death certificate and the cemetery marker both indicate that John C. Abel was born in 1853, that birth year is not consistent with information found in census records. In the 1910 census of El Paso County, John’s birth year was approximately 1860; in the 1900 census of Taylor County, his birth was July 1860; in the 1881 census of Uvalde County, his birth year was approximately 1860; in the 1870 census of Travis County, his birth year was approximately 1860..
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Post by Hunter on Jul 5, 2018 11:16:06 GMT -5
Hunter, Although the death certificate and the cemetery marker both indicate that John C. Abel was born in 1853, that birth year is not consistent with information found in census records. In the 1910 census of El Paso County, John’s birth year was approximately 1860; in the 1900 census of Taylor County, his birth was July 1860; in the 1881 census of Uvalde County, his birth year was approximately 1860; in the 1870 census of Travis County, his birth year was approximately 1860.. Wow ... only 7 year difference of APPROXIMATELY and the year is even rounded off! It's annoying when I took a census and they wrote down my maiden name wrong and I will have to pay to correct the record.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 5, 2018 13:43:12 GMT -5
I get frustrated over this sometimes. For some, there seems to be a total lack of recognition of a commonly known fact where Brushy and Martile are concerned. I'm referring to the fact that elderly people are prone to get dementia or Alzheimer's. Being so afflicted doesn't necessarily mean they've forgotten everything they ever knew! It does mean they may get confused and leave out pertinent data in testimony. For those who ignore this, it seems, an elderly person has to either be totally flawless in their recollection and include every pertinent fact, else their statements are considered worthless and they are labeled "liars" or "frauds".
I believe it is entirely possible that a great deal of what Martile said was based on memories of what her husband had said. If that is the case, then she could have even more issues with accuracy. But this doesn't mean she was a liar. I'm sure she loved and trusted her husband and if he says Brushy was Billy, then she believed it totally and without question. Also, remember, it is said that Brushy immediately recognized her when they met. I do believe, can't prove, but believe, that she and Brushy had met before and that he had been introduced to her, by her husband, as Billy The Kid.
Also remember that she had been known for awhile as claiming she had known Billy The Kid. This is why another claimant had been brought to her earlier, whom she insisted was "not" the real Billy. Why would she deny that person's claim and then be so fully committed to accepting Brushy's? Doesn't make any sense at all!
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 5, 2018 16:29:50 GMT -5
“I'm referring to the fact that elderly people are prone to get dementia or Alzheimer’s.”
Dementia and Alzheimers slowly destroy the memory. That’s a known fact.
“For those who ignore this, it seems, an elderly person has to either be totally flawless in their recollection and include every pertinent fact, else their statements are considered worthless and they are labeled "liars" or "frauds". “
Martile was neither a fraud or a liar (one who makes a false statement with the deliberate intention to deceive). She told the truth about her place of birth, age, residence in Abilene, the name of her second husband, their place of marriage, and her place of residence in 1950.
Martile’s claim that William Bonney visited with the Able family before and after Pat Garrett supposedly killed him in New Mexico is not credible. John C. Abel lived in Uvalde County, TX, in 1880; John C. Abel and Martelia Bilberry Henderson were married in 1898.
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Post by Hunter on Jul 5, 2018 18:24:17 GMT -5
Martile’s claim that William Bonney visited with the Able family before and after Pat Garrett supposedly killed him in New Mexico is not credible. John C. Abel lived in Uvalde County, TX, in 1880; John C. Abel and Martelia Bilberry Henderson were married in 1898. I found the 1880 record for a John C Abel in Uvalde, Texas. (ABEL and not ABLE) Even with the census taken in Uvalde, Texas in 1880, it is still possible that he knew the Kid, working on ranches and on cattle drives through out the area. The Affadavit states that Mr. John C. Able, the husband of this affiant knew Wm. Bonney years before around Pecos, Texas, where the group of friends had a picture taken made in 1880, which picture is a good likeness of Wm. Bonney; that Wm. Bonney visited with the Able Family before and after the time it was said Pat Garrett killed him in New Mexico ..." Able Family living in Uvalde, Texas would be his father John, mother Nancy and son, John C. Able. Can you imagine the census takers job in the 1800s? It's a wonder anything is correct. John C AblesAttachments:
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 6, 2018 9:41:30 GMT -5
TTT,
First you said, "Martile was neither a fraud or a liar" Then you said, "Martile’s claim .............. is not credible"
How in the world do you reconcile these two statements, both from the same post? Are you suggesting she was just confused on the second statement? Considering the content of that statement, I don't see how it could have come from confusion, etc. If it is not credible, then it is a lie, plain and simple. A person who lies, is a liar, at least at the time they told the lie. Maybe you think she never said that? I don't know. I'm just looking to understand how those two comments can both be correct.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 7, 2018 21:26:33 GMT -5
“How in the world do you reconcile these two statements, both from the same post?”
There are credible records that Martile told the truth about her place of birth, age, residence in Abilene, the name of her second husband, their place of marriage, and her place of residence in 1950.
There is no credible evidence that that William Bonney visited with the Able family before and after Pat Garrett supposedly killed him in New Mexico. John C. Abel lived in Uvalde County, TX, in 1880; John C. Abel and Martelia Bilberry Henderson were married in 1898.
Call it what you want - liar, fraud, dementia or Alzheimers.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 8, 2018 0:36:47 GMT -5
The comment that I made "For those who ignore this, it seems, an elderly person has to either be totally flawless in their recollection and include every pertinent fact, else their statements are considered worthless and they are labeled "liars" or "frauds". " And you responded that she was not a liar or a fraud. But you also said her claim of Billy visiting the family was not credible. So what is your theory. Since Martile told the truth but Billy didn't visit the Able family, and since she did say she recognized Brushy as Billy then you'd have to suggest that her husband John had lied to her about who Brushy was. So I guess you're accepting her statement that she recognized Brushy which has to mean Brushy really did visit her many years before and really was introduced to her as Billy The Kid. I mean, since you say she was not a liar. Right?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 8, 2018 12:50:05 GMT -5
" So I guess you're accepting her statement that she recognized Brushy which has to mean Brushy really did visit her many years before and really was introduced to her as Billy The Kid. I mean, since you say she was not a liar. Right?"
Wayne, There is evidence that Brushy Bill was introduced to Martile as Billy the Kid by Morrison. I do not believe she had ever seen Billy the Kid.
I do not believe anything that Martile said in her affidavit, or in her additional statements found in "Alias Billy the Kid", unless those statements are verified with credible evidence.
"I had not seen him since before Pat Garrett claimed he shot him."
I have a very difficult time believing that a young girl born in Cooke County, Texas, November 2, 1871, who was a 9 year old resident of Lampasas County, Texas, in June 1880, saw Billy the Kid before July 14, 1881.
The affidavit of Martile Able is dated 1 August 1950. Martile died in the El Paso General Hospital May 23, 1952, less than 2 years later. The death certificate of Marthie (sic) Ables (sic) indicates the cause of death was hypostatic pneumonia. The antecedent cause was a fractured left hip. Another significant condition contributing to her death but not related to the disease or condition causing death was SENILE ARTERIOSCLEROSIS, a condition that had existed for 10 years.
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