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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 14, 2016 18:08:29 GMT -5
"Story was hard to follow."
mckinley412, That is the understatement of the year.
Talented fiction writers can create a believable, coherent story. Facts are not required.
Brushy Bill attempted to create a biography. He selected as his birthplace, Buffalo Gap, a site beyond the Texas frontier in Indian county. He chose a birth date, the last hour of the last day of 1859. What could be easier to remember than that? He identified as his parents J. H. Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn. There is no record of either of them. He said Mary Adeline Dunn and Kathrine Bonney were half-sisters. Of course, there is no record of that relationship. There is no credible record that Catherine McCarty was ever known as Kathrine Bonney, although both Garrett and Burns referred to Kathleen Bonney as the mother of Billy the Kid.
None of Brushy Bill's activities prior to 1874 can be verified. Brushy Bill's account of the Lincoln County events follows descriptions found in "The Saga of Billy the Kid", by Burns. None of Brushy Bill's activities between July 1881 and 21 August 1912 can be verified.
No wonder Morrison and Sonnichsen had difficulty following his story.
It is worth noting that Sonnichsen wrote, excerpted: "Much of it may be fiction. It is impossible about now to say how much of it is true, and would take years and a lot of money to find out."
With ready access to information on the internet, this part of his story is true: he married Mollie Brown, Lutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison, and briefly owned 80 acres in Sevier County, Arkansas.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 14, 2016 18:09:58 GMT -5
CORRECTION, IN CAP LETTERS:
"I believe Brushy was at the wedding because I believe Billy The Kid was at the wedding and I believe Brushy was Billy The Kid."
So, Brushy was at the wedding. That means Brushy knew that Antrim's first name was William. Brushy knew that Joseph was Catherine's son. Brushy knew that Kathrine Bonney was Catherine McCarty when she married William Antrim. Why did Brushy Bill never mention Catherine's son, Joseph McCarty Antrim? Why did Brushy Bill never mention the first name of William H. Antrim? Why did Brushy Bill never refer to his "step-aunt" as Catherine McCarty rather than Kathrine Bonney? There is no credible record that Catherine McCarty was ever known as Kathrine Bonney. Brushy Bill usually provided a sequential records of events in his life. How is it possible that he would have omitted his "step-aunts" marriage from his story? Surely that would have made an impression on a 13 year old boy.
I think I know the answer to all these questions. None of this information about Catherine McCarty's marriage to WILLIAM H. ANTRIM had been published, for it didn't became public knowledge until after 1950.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 14, 2016 22:20:13 GMT -5
TTT, Why do you think Brushy should have mentioned his aunt's son Joseph? Why should he mention every detail that happened in a 90 year life span? These are not details on a check list that came out of books, he was telling his life story from his perspective out of his mind which should convince you even further that he wasn't getting everything out of the books. It has already been explained to you at nauseating length that Brushy never referred to Catherine as Catherine Bonnie, the author called her that because that's what authors had been doing back then. And again Brushy did not make the same mistake everybody else was making. Whyyy in the world would you think that his aunt's marriage would leave an impression on a boy that age??? Why should he mention it? He's not going off a check list of things everyone knows about Billy the Kid, get it? Yes the official marriage record were discovered after Brushy had passed away but the marriage had been wrote about half a dozen times before he died. As early as of 1882 Pat Garrett put in his book that Katherine Bonnie moved away with her two sons and married a man named Antrim. So it's not like he didn't know about Billy the Kid being at the marriage. He probably didn't think it was that important.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 14, 2016 22:26:50 GMT -5
Also I'm not sure that Brushy ever mentioned anything about Mr. Antrim (and yes I do know his first name) If he didn't mention his first name I wouldn't expect him to, I'm sure when he was a kid he didn't call mr. Antrim by his first name just like you probably wouldn't call the president by his first name or perhaps even your step father by his first name. When I was looking to see if he did mention old man Antrim, I did notice that he he told the Coe's that he wanted to go back home to visit his mother and he didn't tell them that she was already dead which is interesting because I remember from an interview with one of the Coe's and they said it had always been their impression that Billy's mother was still alive.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 15, 2016 0:39:39 GMT -5
I believe Brushy referred to his real mother only in describing his birth and birthplace. He was only a toddler when he came to think of Catherine McCarty as his "mother".
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 15, 2016 2:03:47 GMT -5
Wayne, I'm not sure if Brushy ever referred to Catherine as his mother when he was living in Silver City. The three people I am talking about is his birth mother, his stepmother, and the real Oliver Pleasants mother whose identity he stole, oh wait... page 15 of Alias Billy the Kid... Brushy told the Coes that mrs. Antrim was his mother. That makes four people Brushy referred to as his mother at some point in time. Oh nevermind I see what you are saying. Yeah he did refer to his stepmother as mother on page 17 when she says she doctored him up
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 15, 2016 21:55:20 GMT -5
"1. A 15 July 1881 San Miguel County Coroner’s Jury Report concluded that the murder of William Bonney in Maxwell’s home was justifiable homicide." Because of the lies told to them by Garrett. None of the jurors were witnesses to the killing and I doubt any of them even saw the body of the man Garrett shot.
Wayne, I cited a fact. There is a coroner's jury report. You responded with an opinion that Garrett lied. You did not cite a source upon which you based your opinion.
I find your second statement amusing. "None of the jurors were witnesses to the killing." Just how often is a juror witness to a killing?
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 16, 2016 1:30:00 GMT -5
TTT, don't be silly. I'm not stupid enough to suggest the jurors "should have" seen the killing firsthand. I'm saying since they obviously did not, they had to rely on what Garrett or possibly Maxwell said happened and if Garrett shot an innocent man or one who was armed only with a knife, then he needed to lie to protect himself and his reputation. Yes, there is a coroner's jury report. In fact there was more than one. Which one do you believe was written by the jurors and which jurors that signed it were actually in Fort Sumner that night?
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 16, 2016 12:05:11 GMT -5
I mentioned not too long ago that Manuel Taylor or Ortero or one of those guys said that Milnor Rudolph was not there to view the body.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 16, 2016 15:32:07 GMT -5
mckinley412, This should be easy to follow. Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown. Mollie Brown married Oliver Roberts 21 August 1912 in Van Zandt County, TX. Oliver Roberts registered for the WWI draft in Little River County, AR. He said his nearest relative was Mollie Roberts. He signed the registration card as Oliver Pleasant Roberts. He reported his date of birth was 26 August 1878. Geneva Roberts Pittmon said that the birth date of her uncle, Oliver P. Roberts, was 26 August 1878. Geneva said Oliver P. Roberts was the son of Henry O. Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson. Henry Oliver’s granddaughter recognized her cousin, Ollie, when Tunstill showed her photographs of Brushy Bill Roberts and Henry V. Morrison.
Brushy Bill was Oliver Pleasant Roberts.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 17, 2016 2:32:47 GMT -5
I like to keep an open mind. Maybe when I find the 14 year old photo of him I can prove he wasn't Billy. But my Spock-like logic tells me he was. However he was only half-vulcan, I guess The Human Side could make a mistake. I am also working on getting the court-martial records for when he was in Cuba, Brushy I mean, not Spock. I missed a call from the record place but they should have sent me some information on how to get started and the forms to fill out in my email which I forgot to check when I was at the library yesterday. I don't get anything done real fast because it is like not the greatest Library. I have to pay $2 a piece for them to get books for me that I need. And it took me 4 hours to download Blair Witch Project 2 in Hard Target 2 because their internet is so slow. (I like watching sequels). ( P.s. Best one was Young Guns 2)
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 17, 2016 16:06:15 GMT -5
"None of the jurors were witnesses to the killing and I doubt any of them even saw the body of the man Garrett shot."
Wayne, Still stand by that statement?
On this 15th day of July, A.D. 1881, I, the undersigned, Justice of the Peace of the above named precinct, received information that a murder had taken place a Fort Sumner, in said precinct, and immediately upon receiving said information I proceeded to the said place and named Milnor Rudulph, Jose Silva, Antonio Savedra, Pedro Antonio Lucero, Lorenzo Jaramillo and Sabal Gutierres a jury to investigate the case and the above jury convened at the home of Luz B. Maxwell and proceeded to a room in said in said house where they found the body of William Bonney alias "Kid" with a shot on the left breast and having examined the body they examined the evidence of Pedro Maxwell, which evidence is as follows: "I being in my bed in my room, at about midnight on the 14th day of July, Pat F. Garrett came into my room and sat at the end of my bed to converse with me.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 17, 2016 23:52:42 GMT -5
"proceeded to a room in said house".
By the time the Judge got there, if he ever did (Judge Segura never entered the event in his own records) then the body had been moved to the carpenter's shop and laid out for a wake. So how did they view the body "in the house". How quickly do "you" think the Judge showed up. Segura allegedly kept careful notes and records of all of his official activities and yet nothing about that night? There is a theory that there were two coroner's reports. That the first one was lost and Garrett had Rudolph write the second one. I suspect Garrett wrote the above document himself since there is reason to believe Rudolph wasn't even in Fort Sumner that night. So yes, absolutely, I stand by that statement!
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 18, 2016 16:42:18 GMT -5
"By the time the Judge got there, if he ever did (Judge Segura never entered the event in his own records) then the body had been moved to the carpenter's shop and laid out for a wake. So how did they view the body "in the house". How quickly do "you" think the Judge showed up. Segura allegedly kept careful notes and records of all of his official activities and yet nothing about that night? There is a theory that there were two coroner's reports. That the first one was lost and Garrett had Rudolph write the second one. I suspect Garrett wrote the above document himself since there is reason to believe Rudolph wasn't even in Fort Sumner that night. So yes, absolutely, I stand by that statement!"
Absolutely astounding! You believe the fantastic story told by an old man who claimed to be Billy the Kid, with no verifiable proof, is more credible than the recorded report of a low level government official.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 18, 2016 18:52:27 GMT -5
In this case, YES! Are you suggesting government officials should always be trusted? Now that's what "I" consider astounding!
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