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Post by Hunter on May 26, 2019 19:18:40 GMT -5
I don't want to get into a debate over the minutia of what Dalton said, what was correct or incorrect. The truth is I have serious doubts he was Jesse James. I think he may have known him or even been related to him, possibly a cousin or something. I don't know, because I've never been motivated enough to try and dig into it. Jesse James just doesn't hold the same fascination for me that Billy The Kid does. I say again, I don't think he's been proven to have been a fraud, and even if he can be proven a fraud that doesn't mean Brushy was also a fraud. Yes, they knew each other, and yes Brushy identified him as Jesse. My theory regarding that would be, again only a theory, that Dalton was somehow connected to the real Jesse and in his attempt to claim that identity he somehow heard that Billy The Kid was still alive, and that he approached Brushy and convinced him he was Jesse. That Dalton thought aligning himself with Billy The Kid would further the credibility of his claims. Maybe that's the way it went, maybe not. But I've never heard anyone explain how the two of them got together in the first place and why. Wayne, I agree with you about Dalton and Brushy. That makes sense to me. Back in my home state, one of my closest friends was a JAMES. Her father came from south of the Kearney, Missouri area and they are directly related as cousins. Mr. James said that his grandfather as a young boy, remembers seeing both Frank and Jesse at a family picnic get-together. The family still go back to Kearney for James family reunions when they can. I was told that Jesse was definitely killed April 3, 1882. My friends father, Mr. James (he is 98 this year) has a resemblance of Frank James when he was older and they all have the family trait of red hair.
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Post by clydec on May 29, 2019 8:34:23 GMT -5
mckinley412, I do not subscribe to the theory that the reported 1882 death of Jesse James was a hoax and conspiracy as skeptics maintain.
There is compelling evidence that he was killed in 1882. Zerelda, his mother, directed, in the first paragraph of her 1907 will, that she be buried between her two dead sons, Archibald Peyton Samuel and Jesse W. James. There are newspaper articles about the 1902 exhumation of Jesse James on the old James homestead and reinterred in a new casket at Kearney.
A search of “Chronicling America” for Jesse James killed 1882 returned 453 pages from newspapers across the county. This article is found in the Bismarck Tribune, April 7, 1882. “THE REMOVAL St. Joseph, Mol, April 5. — The body of Jesse James was shipped from this city on the 7 o’clock train on the Hannibal & St. Joseph railway this evening, in custody of Marshal Wing, of this city, and the family of the dead desperado, consisting of C. W. Jones, cousin of Jesse, R. J. Hines, the widow’s brother, Mrs. James, Mrs Samuels, and the two children. It will then be taken to Kearney, Clay county, mo., and buried on James’ homestead tomorrow. There has been considerable of a wrangle over the remains.”
Mrs. Samuel, not Mrs. Samuels, is correct. I do not know if C. W. Jones was Jesse’s cousin, or if R. J. Hines was the brother of Zee Mimms James.This may all be so TTT, but here is an interesting photo. I am not sure if you have seen it before. It is supposedly a James family photo taken at the wedding of Frank and Annie James. Frank is front left in the photo, Annie is center front and the man to her right has been identified as Jesse James. You can clearly see Jesse's mother Zerelda in the middle row directly behind Frank and Reuben Samuel there stepfather is back row to the left of Zerelda. This photo is a reversed image because Zerelda had lost her right arm in the Pinkerton bombing, but this one shows her with her left arm missing. I don't know if the man identified as Jesse is actually him, but it is the man who was later known as James L Courtney. He is the only one of the many claimants that seems to have at least some kind of connection with the James family and if that is Frank and Annie James sitting on the ground then it would be only reasonable that Frank would have Jesse sitting next to him. They were very close as brothers.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 29, 2019 16:45:56 GMT -5
mckinley412, I do not subscribe to the theory that the reported 1882 death of Jesse James was a hoax and conspiracy as skeptics maintain.
There is compelling evidence that he was killed in 1882. Zerelda, his mother, directed, in the first paragraph of her 1907 will, that she be buried between her two dead sons, Archibald Peyton Samuel and Jesse W. James. There are newspaper articles about the 1902 exhumation of Jesse James on the old James homestead and reinterred in a new casket at Kearney.
A search of “Chronicling America” for Jesse James killed 1882 returned 453 pages from newspapers across the county. This article is found in the Bismarck Tribune, April 7, 1882. “THE REMOVAL St. Joseph, Mol, April 5. — The body of Jesse James was shipped from this city on the 7 o’clock train on the Hannibal & St. Joseph railway this evening, in custody of Marshal Wing, of this city, and the family of the dead desperado, consisting of C. W. Jones, cousin of Jesse, R. J. Hines, the widow’s brother, Mrs. James, Mrs Samuels, and the two children. It will then be taken to Kearney, Clay county, mo., and buried on James’ homestead tomorrow. There has been considerable of a wrangle over the remains.”
Mrs. Samuel, not Mrs. Samuels, is correct. I do not know if C. W. Jones was Jesse’s cousin, or if R. J. Hines was the brother of Zee Mimms James.This may all be so TTT, but here is an interesting photo. I am not sure if you have seen it before. It is supposedly a James family photo taken at the wedding of Frank and Annie James. Frank is front left in the photo, Annie is center front and the man to her right has been identified as Jesse James. You can clearly see Jesse's mother Zerelda in the middle row directly behind Frank and Reuben Samuel there stepfather is back row to the left of Zerelda. This photo is a reversed image because Zerelda had lost her right arm in the Pinkerton bombing, but this one shows her with her left arm missing. I don't know if the man identified as Jesse is actually him, but it is the man who was later known as James L Courtney. He is the only one of the many claimants that seems to have at least some kind of connection with the James family and if that is Frank and Annie James sitting on the ground then it would be only reasonable that Frank would have Jesse sitting next to him. They were very close as brothers. clydec, I have seen the photo. It is on the cover of "Jesse James - The Smoking Gun", by Betty Dorsett Duke. If my memory is correct, this is a photo made in Jackson County after the Civil War when Caroline Clarke Quantrill came from Canal Dover, Ohio, to meet some of the men who had ridden with her son, William Clarke Quantrill, in the Civil War. Caroline Quantrill is in the picture. Duke made many unsupported claims that her great-grandfather, James Lafayette Courtney, a Union bugler blower, was Jesse Woodson James. Courtney's enlistment and subsequent pension is a matter of record. Dude succeeded in obtaining a statement from "experts" that the facial features of James Lafayette Courtney and Jesse Woodson James matched. Excerpts from 20 October 1888, "Pittsburg Daily Post", from New York World Special: "Mrs. Frank James, of Dallas, Tex., is visiting her parents, Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Ralston. Frank's mother, Mrs. Samuels, of Clay County, is also a visitor at the same place. On Wednesday, a dinner party was given by Colonel Ralston and lady, where the following friends attended: Mrs. Jessie James, Mrs. Caroline Quantrill, Mr. and Mrs. Frank James, and others"
"Mrs. Caroline Quantrill, mentioned in the newspaper item, is the mother of Quantrill, the notorious guerrilla. She came to Jackson County last May from Canal Dover, O. May 11, at Blue Springs, Mo., the old lady held a reunion of her son's old command, and nearly a score of the "grizzled old timers", whose homes are scattered in 3 or 4 counties, were present to recite their adventures of bloody war times." James L. Courney, age 14, was in the home of his parents, Stephen and Diannah Courtney, in the 1860 census of Johnson County, MO. Jessie W. James, age 12, was in the home of his mother and step-father, Reuben Samuel and Zerelda Cole James Samuel, in the 1860 census of Clay County, MO.
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Post by clydec on May 29, 2019 17:43:32 GMT -5
So, why would James L Courtney be in a photo of men who rode with Quantrill if he was a Union man? This is Frank and Annie james in this photo. I have sen a painting of her and this lady looks almost identical to her. I can't see any ex confederates letting an ex union soldier into a photo like this. Your wrong on this one. I am not saying he is Jesse, but there is more to it than that.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 29, 2019 18:01:48 GMT -5
So, why would James L Courtney be in a photo of men who rode with Quantrill if he was a Union man? This is Frank and Annie james in this photo. I have sen a painting of her and this lady looks almost identical to her. I can't see any ex confederates letting an ex union soldier into a photo like this. Your wrong on this one. I am not saying he is Jesse, but there is more to it than that. You are correct. Frank and Annie are in the photo. James L. Courtney is not. Why do you think he was? Duke misrepresented many facts, and photographs.
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Post by clydec on May 31, 2019 8:44:35 GMT -5
So, if Frank and Annie are the man and woman sitting in the front row, who is that tall dark haired moustached man sitting on the other side of Annie? He is labeled as Jesse James in this photo, but has been shown by the Duke family to be James L Courtney, which was an alias that Jesse James used.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 31, 2019 16:14:34 GMT -5
So, if Frank and Annie are the man and woman sitting in the front row, who is that tall dark haired moustached man sitting on the other side of Annie? He is labeled as Jesse James in this photo, but has been shown by the Duke family to be James L Courtney, which was an alias that Jesse James used. I do not know the name of the tall dark haired mustached man. There is no known record that Jesse James used the alias of James L Courtney. That unsupported claim was made by the late Betty Dorsett Duke. There is a record that both Jesse James and Frank James and their wives and children used aliases in the 1880 census of Davidson County, Tennessee.
There is no evidence that James L. Courtney claimed to be Jesse Woodson James. That claim was made by the late Betty Dorsett Duke. James L Courtney was not Jesse Woodson James, regardless of claims made in 3 books by the late Betty Dorsett Duke. He was an impostor.
J L (James Lafayette), Courtney, 33, his wife, M E (Mary Ellen Barron) 24, and their children, M D (Mary Dianah), 7, L E (Louisa Ellen), 5, L J (Lillie Jane), 3, and J W (James William), lived in Falls County, Texas in the 1880 census. Microfilm page 271A, lines 19 - 24.
Jesse Woodson James was the son of Robert Sallee James and Zerelda Mimms. Jesse Woodson James married Zerelda Mimms. They lived in Davidson County, Tennessee, when the 1880 census was recorded. Neither Jesse Woodson James nor Frank James provided the enumerator with their real name. Both families lived in the same dwelling. 1880 TN census, Davidson County, microfilm page 343B, lines 36 - 42. Ben J Woodson (Frank James) was 42; Fannie (Annie Ralston) was 27; Robert (James) was 2. This is confirmed by the 1959 Missouri Death Certificate 59-039386 of Robert Franklin Alexander, born in Nashville, TN, February 6, 1877 to Alexander Franklin James and Ann Ralston. George D Howard (Jesse James) was 32; Josie (Zerelda Mimms) was 29; Charley (Jesse Edwards James) was 4; and Mary (Mary Susan James) was 1. This is confirmed by the 1932 Missouri Death Cerfiicate of Mary J Barr, born June 17, 1879 to Jesse James and Zerelda Mimms.
There is far too much evidence to post here that proves James L Courtney was not Jesse Woodson James.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 1, 2019 17:30:52 GMT -5
So, if Frank and Annie are the man and woman sitting in the front row, who is that tall dark haired moustached man sitting on the other side of Annie? He is labeled as Jesse James in this photo, but has been shown by the Duke family to be James L Courtney, which was an alias that Jesse James used. clydec, This is a link to a website that refutes Betty Dorsett Duke's claim that her great-grandfather was Jesse James. She represented a photograph of Travis Barron as Jesse James, and relatives provided notarized documents that the photo was that of Travis Barron. www.ericjames.org/JesseJamesinTexas/duke.html
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Post by Jd on Sept 16, 2020 21:28:57 GMT -5
Jesse Woodson James used the names j frank dalton and Jacob Benjamin gerlt... among others.... the dna of those relatives are from Jesse James... vincel Simmons is his grandson.... no one is closer to Jesse James on ancestry than those families... I ve seen the dna personally.... now you all know the truth.... dna doesNOT lie!!!
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Post by kerry on Sept 17, 2020 22:57:30 GMT -5
Dalton was about a deep state -Knights of the Golden Circle...Confederate repraisal for those carpet bagging Yankees! His dark claims are both intriguing -and disgusting...there was a lot going on the night Lincoln was assassinated .The Indians did have repeating rifles at the battle of Greasy Grass ...The Russians may have run interfence during the Civil War(as today)...major influencial and ficticious players in early 20 century US - may have been bankrolled by a deep state...Dalton was gloating over nefarious deeds that he wanted recognition for.Neither glorious nor honourable -not deserving the light of day..regardless of whether he was Jesse James or one of his many other dark fantasies - he should not in any way be regarded as discrediting Brushy Bill .
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Post by RonBk on Sept 1, 2021 14:11:35 GMT -5
I found this photo of supposedly a 92 year old Frank Dalton with Belle Starrs granddaughter. It looks a lot like J Frank Dalton? If it truly is him, that could indicate he really was Jesse, or at least that he had been a friend of Belle Starr. Or is this a completely different Frank Dalton?
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Post by tboor74 on Sept 2, 2021 9:18:32 GMT -5
I've never seen that pic before, where is it from, and when. Very interesting.
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Post by RonBk on Sept 2, 2021 9:44:02 GMT -5
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Post by RonBk on Sept 2, 2021 21:05:18 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2021 23:08:06 GMT -5
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