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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 22, 2015 16:44:07 GMT -5
Brushy Bill's Fabricated famiy
Father - James "Wild Henry" Roberts Mother - Mary Adeline DUNN Step-Mother - Sara Elizabeth Ferguson
Grandfather - Ben Roberts
Cousin - Ollie Roberts
Cousin - Martha Vada Roberts Heath (wife of Dudley Heath)
Brushy Bill's Documented Actual family
Father - Henry Oliver Roberts Mother - Sara Elizabeth Ferguson
Grandfather - Joseph Roberts Siblings - Andrew Berry, Mary Cordelia Roberts Adams, John W., Lonnie V., Thomas Ulysses, Nora, Joseph Irvin
Half-Siblings - Samantha Belle Roberts Arnold Chancellor, Martha Vada Roberts Heath
Mother of Half-Siblings - Caroline DUNN
Roberts Aunts & Uncles - Virgil Alexander, Amanda Nevill Roberts Freeman Branch, Samantha Elizabeth Roberts Brown Ledwell, Andrew Berry
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 22, 2015 16:45:37 GMT -5
Roberts 1st Cousins (Male) - Joseph Alexander, Thomas Branch, Marshall Walker, Oran Roscoe, Andrew Berry, James Carlos, William Garnett
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 23, 2015 14:29:10 GMT -5
Brushy Bill's Fabricated family
Father - James "Wild Henry" Roberts (no record) Mother - Mary Adeline DUNN (no record) Step-Mother - Sara Elizabeth Ferguson (4 census records as wife of Henry Oliver Roberts)
Grandfather - Ben Roberts (no record)
Cousin - Ollie Roberts (no record)
Cousin - Martha Vada Roberts Heath (wife of Dudley Heath) (6 census records, cemetery record)
Brushy Bill's Actual Documented family
Father - Henry Oliver Roberts (4 census records; cemetery record) Mother - Sara Elizabeth Ferguson (4 census records; cemetery record)
Grandfather - Joseph Roberts (3 land records in Rusk County) Siblings - Andrew Berry Roberts (3 census records, cemetery record) Mary Cordelia Roberts Adams (4 census records, cemetery record) John W. Roberts (cemetery record) Lonnie V. Roberts (cemetery record) Thomas Ulysses Roberts (5 census records, cemetery record) Nora Roberts (cemetery record) Joseph Irvin Roberts (5 census records, TX death certificate)
Half-Siblings - Samantha Belle Roberts Arnold Chancellor (5 census records; cemetery record) Martha Vada Roberts Heath (6 census records, cemetery record)
Mother of Half-Siblings - Caroline DUNN (2 census records, cemetery record)
Roberts Aunts & Uncles - Virgil Alexander Roberts (4 census records, cemetery record) Amanda Nevill Roberts Freeman Branch (3 census records, cemetery record) Samantha Elizabeth Roberts Brown Ledwell (3 census records, cemetery record) Andrew Berry Roberts (3 census records, cemetery record)
Roberts 1st Cousins (Male) - Joseph Alexander Roberts (6 census records, cemetery record) Thomas Branch Roberts (2 census records, cemetery record) Marshall Walker Roberts (2 census records, cemetery record) Oran Roscoe Roberts (2 census records) Andrew Berry Roberts (4 census records) James Carlos Roberts (4 census records, cemetery record) William Garnett Roberts (4 census records, cemetery record)
Darn!! Where is that Ollie Roberts that Brushy Bill found dead along the Red River in 1892?
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 23, 2015 17:14:46 GMT -5
The entire family you call "fabricated" may have been exactly that. I'm not saying I agree it was fabricated. I'm saying it is possible.
There may have never been a cousin Ollie that was killed as Brushy claimed. I'm not saying there wasn't. I'm just saying it is possible.
There may have been no gun battle in Fort Sumner that night. I'm not saying there wasn't. I'm just saying it is possible.
There may have never been a friend called Billy Barlow. I'm not saying there wasn't. I'm just saying it is possible.
Brushy may never have appeared in Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show. I'm not saying he didn't. I'm just saying it is possible.
There are many more items I could put on this list. But I won't bother right now. I'm sure you know most of them.
But even if all those items are correct, fabricated family and all, I am still inclined to believe Brushy really was Billy The Kid. If I ever become convinced he was not, it will be when someone shows me how the reasons I think he was are invalid. All those other things matter, yes. But they don't convince me.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 23, 2015 23:16:54 GMT -5
"The entire family you call "fabricated" may have been exactly that. I'm not saying I agree it was fabricated. I'm saying it is possible. "
The Texas Death Certificate of Martha Vada Heath shows that the name of her father was H O Roberts, and the surname of her mother was Dunn. Both Martha, age 6, daughter, and Oliver, age 1, son, were in H. O. Roberts' household in the 1880 census. Do you accept this as proof that Martha Vada was a half-sister of Brushy Bill rather than a cousin? I guess the answer is no, with a blue sky explanation of, "it is possible that Oliver was not Brushy Bill, so Martha Vada could have been Oliver P. Roberts step-sister and Brushy Bill's cousin and Pope Pious XII could have been his cousin too."
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 23, 2015 23:22:36 GMT -5
Actually, I really do believe Brushy Bill and Oliver P. Roberts were two different people. I don't know much about Pope Pious XII.
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Post by jgaines on Feb 27, 2015 13:55:51 GMT -5
Anyone who has decided that Brushy was Oliver P. Roberts will obviously not believe his story. I've said this before on a different thread- if the grave sites of Oliver P. Robert's mother and Brushy Bill are absolute known facts, then dig those two up- If its a match - it makes it very hard that Brushy could have been anyone besides Oliver P. . If its not a match, then he most certainly was not Oliver P. I still contend that it would be next to impossible for this man to have had the knowledge of the Lincoln County War he possessed in 1949 and not have been there at the time. For me, the single strongest piece of evidence is the Angora Scarf. Brushy said he traded the Navaho woman his photo for the scarf while he was shackled up and asking to be alone with the Maxwell girl in Fort Sumner. Jim East wrote about this Indian woman with a hand made Angora scarf coming out to relay a message to Billy in a letter to a fellow lawman in 1926. This information was not printed in any books prior to Brushy's death. With only this one piece of information, if Brushy was not Billy the kid, he was either a psychic or was someone else standing there on the street with Jim East and Billy the kid.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 28, 2015 14:18:44 GMT -5
"Anyone who has decided that Brushy was Oliver P. Roberts will obviously not believe his story. "
You are correct. I don't believe it. Brushy Bill said the second wife of his father, "Wild Henry" Roberts, was Sara Elizabeth Ferguson. FACT: Sara Elizabeth Ferguson was the wife of Henry Oliver Roberts. They were the parents of Oliver P. "Brushy Bill" Roberts
Brushy Bill said Martha Vada Roberts Heath was his cousin. FACT: Martha Vada Roberts Heath was the half-sister of Oliver P. "Brushy Bill" Roberts. Her mother was Caroline Dunn Roberts, buried in Mount Harmony Cemetery, Greenwood, Sebastian County, Arkansas.
Brushy Bill appeared out of nowhere in Van Zandt County. FACT: Oliver P. Roberts, and his parents, appear in census records, starting in Sebastian County, Arkansas, in 1880 until their death. Much has been made of the age and birthplace discrepancies in these records.
Brushy Bill claimed to have participated in several notable events and occupations. FACT: No record has ever been found of his service as a Texas Ranger, deputy marshall, Wild West performer, Rough Rider, etc. Of course,,the explanation is that all these activities occurred under a multiplicity of aliases.
The story of the picture and the scarf is hearsay, i. e., it is not supported by any fact or record. It may have appeared in print. That does not make it so.
The Lincoln County war was newsworthy. Knowledge of events in the Lincoln County war was not limited to participants or residents of Lincoln County. References to Brushy Bill's notebooks suggest that Brushy Bill read about the Lincoln County war and recorded significant information.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 28, 2015 18:24:19 GMT -5
There are facts that have never been documented. It is a fact that I met pianist Roger Williams in 1992 but it is not documented anywhere. I know, not a real good example, but I think you have to admit there are facts that are not documented. They're called "undocumented facts". But as far as the Rough Riders are concerned, yes, there are "records" that suggest he was really there. Not records that can be proven, at least not yet. But records nonetheless. Everyone really should read Daniel Edwards' book "Billy The Kid An Autobiography". There are some records that support Brushy's claims. Proof? No. But there's also no proof he was Oliver P. Roberts.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 14, 2016 2:23:28 GMT -5
I haven't looked at this in awhile. Somewhere on here about a year ago there was a post of military record or something of J.H. Roberts from Kentucky. Will somebody help me find it please?
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Post by nmjames on Jun 14, 2016 23:41:23 GMT -5
mckinley412 I think the record you are looking for is on page 60 by Wayne Land on Sept. 10th 2014 at 8:52 AM.
Let me know if this is the one you are looking for.
nmjames
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 16, 2016 14:57:12 GMT -5
In response to Texas Truth Teller I would like to add that a document has already been shown that there was a Ben Roberts in Nacogdoches[sic], Texas. So we should be looking for his son (JH Roberts). Alias Billy the Kid mentioned an Elizabeth Ferguson and somewhere along the road every one started saying that she was the same as Sara Elizabeth. There are records of a Mary Adeline Dunn, not sure if it's the right one but her father is Francis Dunn and mother or perhaps step-mother is Eva Tabithia/Talithia Counts (there are several different spellings of her name) who was previously I think married to two other men, not sure, but I'm basing this off of records I've seen, I believe one was a Sam Bolinger and the other one I forget. What Brushy is saying is that he is not Oliver so Martha wouldn't be a half sister, but she might be 1st, 2nd, 3rd, cousin, we don't know how many brothers Henry Oliver's dad (Joseph Robert's) Dad had but there is a possibility since he died in Texas 1858 that he had left land to his dad who might have been Ben Roberts who we know was there at some point, forget what year or he left property or a kid to JH ROBERTS. But Joseph Roberts died in Rusk County and the center of Rusk Co. is next door/touching Nacogdoches County, he died in 1858, a year later JH ROBERTS is there and has a boy named William H Roberts supposedly. Who knows? But you see how it could all kind of fit together. And if anyone is gonna mess stuff it's gonna be on ancestry, I've showed people proof they had their family trees incorrect back when I was looking at these families but whether listened or not I don't know. It's easy to mix the word illiterate with literary so you can imagine how this whole family thing is gonna get butchered as time goes on. I guarantee you know one could trace all my recent ancestry, to many illegitimate children and bastards and step-kids. Not much imbreeding though, so that's good, of course we'll never know will we?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 16, 2016 22:19:18 GMT -5
"In response to Texas Truth Teller I would like to add that a document has already been shown that there was a Ben Roberts in Nacogdoches[sic], Texas."
mckinley412, Would you kindly tell me where you saw a document that proves Ben Roberts was in Nacogdoches County? William Tunstill located an 1854 land grant to Ben Roberts in Navarro County. That's about 143 miles from Nacogdoches County.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 17, 2016 2:18:01 GMT -5
My mistake, kind sir. I don't have that book. Navarro County. I rarely make a mistake but when I do I promptly admit that it is very rare that I make a mistake.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 17, 2016 11:28:06 GMT -5
"There are records of a Mary Adeline Dunn, not sure if it's the right one but her father is Francis Dunn and mother or perhaps step-mother is Eva Tabithia/Talithia Counts (there are several different spellings of her name) who was previously I think married to two other men, not sure, but I'm basing this off of records I've seen, I believe one was a Sam Bolinger and the other one I forget. "
mckinley412, I have not found any credible record of Mary Adeline Dunn or her father. Her name does appear in "Alias Billy the Kid", "The Return of Billy the Kid", "Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same", "Billy the Kid, Beyond the Grave", "Billy the Kid, the Lost Interviews", "Billy the Kid, an Autobiography", and other books of dubious historical accuracy.
Please cite the publication that indicates the father of Mary Adeline Dunn was Francis Dunn. Thanks
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