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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 17, 2017 21:06:09 GMT -5
True. The black soldiers was no great revelation but your other arguments just aren't good no matter who hasn't seen them. Lol.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 18, 2017 22:21:26 GMT -5
Thain, There is no question that Brushy Bill knew a lot of details about events in Lincoln County. That part of his story is largely consistent with information in SAGA. The other parts of his story are not readily verifiable.
I evaluate statements based on available facts.
Brushy Bill said his parents were J. H. Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn, and that he was born 31 December 1859, the last hour of the last day of 1859 near the Buffalo Gap.
Buffalo Gap is a feature of the Callahan Divide, and is located in Taylor County.
Nothing else supports Brushy Bill’s story of his birth. No record has been found of J. H. Roberts, born in Kentucky, 8 March 1832. No record of Mary Adeline Dunn, born in Kentucky, has been found. The first settlers of Brown County arrived in 1857 and settled near present day Brownwood. The Buffalo Gap, 75 miles northwest of Brownwood, was beyond the Texas frontier in 1859, and frequented by the Penateka band of Comanche Indians. Taylor County was created by the legislature in 1858, organized in 1878, and the first census was conducted in 1880. The earliest group of European settlers in Taylor County were buffalo hunters and bone gatherers, who arrived in the 1870s.
Brushy Bill must have told Lizzie, his last wife, that he was born in 1868, for that date appears on his death certificate and his original cemetery marker.
In my opinion, Brushy Bill’s 1859 birth in Taylor County is not credible.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 18, 2017 23:40:43 GMT -5
Ok. You proved it. He admitted he was born in 1868 as he told his last wife. I want to know who the Oliver on the census records born 1879 is, if he wasn't Brushy. And if he was Brushy and Brushy was 11 years old, then why did they record him as one year old. The whole family was probably frauds.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 19, 2017 13:16:52 GMT -5
Thain, Thanks for responding. “I want to know who the Oliver on the census records born 1879 is, if he wasn't Brushy. And if he was Brushy and Brushy was 11 years old, then why did they record him as one year old. The whole family was probably frauds.”
I believe you are referring to Oliver P. Roberts. There are excerpts from census records. 1880 AR census, Sebastian Co. Henry Roberts, 30, TX ? ? Elizabeth Roberts, 24, AR TN AR Samantha Roberts, 8, AR TX AR Martha Roberts, 6, AR TX AR Berry Roberts, 3, AR TX AR Mary E. Roberts, 2, AR TX AR Olover (sic) Roberts, 1, AR TX AR
Caroline Dunn Roberts, the mother of Samantha and Martha, died in 1875 and is buried in Mount Harmony Cemetery, Sebastion County, AR. Martha Vada Roberts married Dudley Heath about 1890.
1900 TX census, Hopkins Co, Henry O Roberts, 48, May 1852, TX VA TX Sarah E Roberts, 44, Feb 1856, AR VA AR Oliver P Roberts, 20, Aug 1879, AR TX AR Thomas U Roberts, 14, Oct 1885, TX TX AR Irvan Roberts, 5, Feb 1895, TX TX AR
1910 TX census, Van Zandt Co, Precinct 1 Henry O. Roberts, 57. TX VA AR Wife Roberts, 54, AR GA AR Thomas Roberts, 24, TX TX AR Irwin Roberts, 16, TX TX AR 1910 TX census, Van Zandt Co, Precinct 1 Oliver P Roberts, 30, TX KY KY Anna Roberts, 22, TX LA TX
Note incomplete information, and discrepancies in spelling, ages, and birthplaces. Accuracy of census information depends upon the knowledge of the informant, the accuracy of notes recorded at the household, and transcription of notes to the census page.
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Post by David on Jul 10, 2017 10:23:36 GMT -5
I've read this thread and I've seen mention of two photos of BTK, one being the barber shop photo with Billy in the background. The other is the one of him holding a fiddle. I have never seen these. Does anyone have a link? Thanks
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 10, 2017 12:19:16 GMT -5
David, The affidavit of Martile Able (Martelia D. Bilberry Henderson Abel) includes a very long sentence, the entire third paragraph of the affidavit. This information is found in that sentence. A photo was made in Pecos, Texas, of a group of friends. The photo included a good likeness of William Bonney.
The barber shop reference is found in "The Return of the Outlaw, Billy the Kid", page 156. The description of the photo now is, "In the picture, John Able, the barber, is shaving a man in the chair. According to Mrs. Able, Billy the Kid, awaiting his turn, is seated on a nearby bench."
There are problems with both versions. An image of the marriage record of J C Abel and M D Henderson found of the LDS website shows that they were married in Taylor County, Texas, 26 January 1898. Both John C Abel/Able and Martile/Martelia Bilberry Able are buried in the Concord Cemetery in El Paso.
In the 1880 census of Uvalde County, Texas, John Abel was in the household of his parents, John and Nancy Abel in Uvalde County, Texas. In the 1900 census of El Paso County, Texas, John C Abel is a farmer. In the 1910 census of El Paso County, Texas, John Abel is a laborer. The Texas death certificate of John C Abel shows he was a farmer.
I do not regard information in the affidavit of Martile as credible, and do not believe the barbershop picture described by W. C. Jameson ever existed.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 10, 2017 14:19:42 GMT -5
I guess I've never been anywhere other than the locations I'm recorded at by the census taker. Does that mean I don't exist except on one day every ten years? In the 1970 census, while I was away at college am I listed as a resident of Panama City, FL or of Troy, AL.? Could I have been in both places at the same time? I don't recall meeting with the census taker that year in Troy, but that is where I physically resided. Just wondering how that works.
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Post by james on Jul 20, 2017 13:30:00 GMT -5
abc
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Post by Nik Oak on Jul 20, 2017 15:01:37 GMT -5
In "Billy the Kid" by Jameson on pages 95 and 96, Severo Gallegos is quoted as saying " Your man talks like Billy, he looks like Billy, stands and walks like Billy, but was sceptical enough to say that He thought Brushy too young to be Billy. He was later convinced by Brushys unusual eye color.
Gallegos later said that "Brushy laughs and talks the same and looks the same in many ways".
If Brushy was O P Roberts born in 1879, how could he have known Billys mannerisms well enough to copy them so as to convince a living friend of Billys that he was the Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 20, 2017 15:39:21 GMT -5
Exactly!
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Post by TX born and raised on Oct 25, 2020 12:20:18 GMT -5
BS is BS. Billy the Kid participated in the Lincoln County War. His reported death was 1881. Brushy Bill CLAIMED that he was Billy the Kid. Sightings of, or encounters with, someone purporting to be Billy the Kid after 1881 are not credible without convincing proof. No one has ever presented any credible evidence or proof that Pat Garrett failed to kill Billy the Kid. No one has ever presented any credible evidence or proof that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. No one has ever presented any record that supports the parents of Brushy Bill as "Wild Henry" Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn. Billy the Kid was killed in 1881. Martile was 7 years old in 1880 in Lampasas County, Texas. Martile did not prepare a meal for Billy the Kid as she swore to in her affidavit. Martile told an El Paso newspaper reporter in 1950 that she had met Billy the Kid, and that he was using the name of Brushy Bill. The affidavit of Martile Abel is not credible. I dont know if this forum is still active, but I have a couple of questions. Have you put as much effort in proving Billy the Kid was actually killed by Pat Garrett? The "proof" he was killed is based on Garrett's version of the events. Even Garrett's own men did not believe he killed Billy the Kid. Garrett more than anyone had reason to lie about his death. Primarily, Garrett was out of his jurisdiction and things would not have gone well for him if it was discovered he mistakenly killed an innocent man. Also, Garrett expected to receive the reward money, which the governor initially refused to give him. Also, if Billy the Kid's death was widely accepted, why were two warrants for his arrest issued after the fact?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 25, 2020 18:39:57 GMT -5
BS is BS. Billy the Kid participated in the Lincoln County War. His reported death was 1881. Brushy Bill CLAIMED that he was Billy the Kid. Sightings of, or encounters with, someone purporting to be Billy the Kid after 1881 are not credible without convincing proof. No one has ever presented any credible evidence or proof that Pat Garrett failed to kill Billy the Kid. No one has ever presented any credible evidence or proof that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. No one has ever presented any record that supports the parents of Brushy Bill as "Wild Henry" Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn. Billy the Kid was killed in 1881. Martile was 7 years old in 1880 in Lampasas County, Texas. Martile did not prepare a meal for Billy the Kid as she swore to in her affidavit. Martile told an El Paso newspaper reporter in 1950 that she had met Billy the Kid, and that he was using the name of Brushy Bill. The affidavit of Martile Abel is not credible. I dont know if this forum is still active, but I have a couple of questions. Have you put as much effort in proving Billy the Kid was actually killed by Pat Garrett? The "proof" he was killed is based on Garrett's version of the events. Even Garrett's own men did not believe he killed Billy the Kid. Garrett more than anyone had reason to lie about his death. Primarily, Garrett was out of his jurisdiction and things would not have gone well for him if it was discovered he mistakenly killed an innocent man. Also, Garrett expected to receive the reward money, which the governor initially refused to give him. Also, if Billy the Kid's death was widely accepted, why were two warrants for his arrest issued after the fact? History is revised when credible, verifiable records are found that justify the change. There are none.
" Also, if Billy the Kid's death was widely accepted, why were two warrants for his arrest issued after the fact? "
Is that hearsay, or can you provide links to photocopies of these two warrants?
Claims made by authors without sources, references, or supporting credible evidence are hearsay, not fact.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 25, 2020 21:35:01 GMT -5
The so called "facts" regarding Billy's death and Brushy's claim are not there for either side of this debate. "Hearsay" is not assumed to be fact of course but it is also not necessarily false either. If you want to get rid of all the hearsay then prove it is wrong or contains untruths. The word "hearsay" has a bad connotation as if it automatically means "lies". That is not what the word means. Information that starts out as "hearsay" can sometimes later be proven "true" or proven "false". That effort is why we are here. So may the debate continue.
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Post by devorerd on Jan 28, 2021 8:28:32 GMT -5
So I'm new to the forum and have been bitten by the BTK bug! My Dad sent me Edwards book and I read it over a weekend. A couple of questions to our astute members here. FYI, I've been reading all the posts and history here, great stuff!
1. Motive: If I'm in my 70's or 90's depending on who you believe about Brushy, am I really going to go thru the extreme measures of claiming I'm BTK, memorizing facts, yet not matching up the New York birthplace? All for what, fame? Not buying it. Takes a heck of a lot of energy to fake stuff, anonymity is much easier. Noteworthy, it probably put him in the grave, so that worked out to his benefit....NOT!
2. Where is the death cert? You lose it not once, but twice? Come on, that's a major red flag right there. I know there are folks on this forum who have done a ton of research, how many similar situated cases are there were the official death cert disappers? Especially when you consider BTK was one of if not the most wanted outlaw of the time. That doesn't pass the litmus test.
3. Evidence: Are census accurate? To a degree, but you still dealing with someone telling somebody something. Similar to the affidavit argument I have seen in this forum. Empirical verification is my answer, what do your eyes tell you?
4.Were Billy and Pat Masons? Mason's don't kill Masons.
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Post by t on Jan 28, 2021 11:31:57 GMT -5
So I'm new to the forum and have been bitten by the BTK bug! My Dad sent me Edwards book and I read it over a weekend. A couple of questions to our astute members here. FYI, I've been reading all the posts and history here, great stuff! 1. Motive: If I'm in my 70's or 90's depending on who you believe about Brushy, am I really going to go thru the extreme measures of claiming I'm BTK, memorizing facts, yet not matching up the New York birthplace? All for what, fame? Not buying it. Takes a heck of a lot of energy to fake stuff, anonymity is much easier. Noteworthy, it probably put him in the grave, so that worked out to his benefit....NOT! 2. Where is the death cert? You lose it not once, but twice? Come on, that's a major red flag right there. I know there are folks on this forum who have done a ton of research, how many similar situated cases are there were the official death cert disappers? Especially when you consider BTK was one of if not the most wanted outlaw of the time. That doesn't pass the litmus test. 3. Evidence: Are census accurate? To a degree, but you still dealing with someone telling somebody something. Similar to the affidavit argument I have seen in this forum. Empirical verification is my answer, what do your eyes tell you? 4.Were Billy and Pat Masons? Mason's don't kill Masons.
The report of the coroners jury is not a death certificate, but a record of death. Was the coroners jury report lost, or just stored in an unknown location until researchers began looking for it for confirmation of the death date of BtK?
3. Information in a single census may be, and often is, inaccurate. The same information in multiple records is credible. In the WWI draft registration, Brushy said he was born 26 Aug 1878; then 1878 again in the 1920 census and 1878 in the 1930 census. That birth year is consistent with the birth of Oliver P Roberts in Bates Township, Sebastian County, Arkansas in 1880; the 1900 census of Hopkins County, TX, when his birth was reported as Aug 1879; and 1880 in the 1910 census. No date is anywhere close to Brushy's claimed birth year of 1859. Resorting to the alias theory that Brushy assumed the identity of Oliver P Roberts doesn't hold water. No evidence has ever been found that Brushy and Oliver P Roberts were 2 different men.
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