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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 8, 2015 13:09:54 GMT -5
"Dig up Brusy, dig up Ollie's mother - then we would really know something."
Ollie's mother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, is buried in the Hillcrest Cemetery in Van Zandt County. She is the mother of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, who was also known as Brushy Bill and Ollie N. Roberts. Nothing is known about Brushy Bill's imaginary mother, Mary Adeline Dunn Roberts, including her place of interment.
Can you please explain how a 7 year old met Billy the Kid? There were no cars in 1880. There is no record of train service between central Texas and Lincoln County, NM. The average distance traveled by horseback or wagon is about 20 miles per day.
We already know something. The life of Oliver Pleasant Roberts is well documented from his birth in Sebastian County, AR, in 1879, until his death in Hamilton County, TX, in 1950. The imaginary life of Brushy Bill Roberts as related by Ollie N. Roberts to and published by William V. Morrison and quoted by William A. Tunstill, W. C. Jameson, et. al., is not supported by a single, credible, verifiable record. The mythical parents of Brushy Bill, "Wild Henry" Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn, are not found in record or credible document. The sworn affidavit of DeWitt Travis is not credible. He was born several years after the reported death of Billy the Kid in Lincoln County, NM, and could not have possibly have seen Billy the Kid before 1881 and positively identified him in Texas.
In 1950, Martile Abel told an El Paso newspaper reporter that she had recently met Billy the Kid, and he was known as Brushy Bill. How could Martile have prepared a meal for Billy the Kid before his reported death in 1881 if she and John Abel were not married until about 1897?
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Post by Wayne Land on May 8, 2015 20:04:10 GMT -5
"Can you please explain how a 7 year old met Billy the Kid?"
Answer: I never said that happened. I assume you're talking about Martile Ables. I'm saying she met Billy around 1900 as he was introduced to her by her husband.
"The sworn affidavit of DeWitt Travis is not credible."
Answer: The affidavit does not say he met Billy prior to 1881 and there is nothing in it that can't be credible. The affidavit is credible but is not convincing. There's a difference between "not credible" and "not convincing". Wait, I wasn't going to discuss DeWitt anymore. Scratch that comment.
"How could Martile have prepared a meal for Billy the Kid before his reported death in 1881"
Answer: Obviously she did not, but then she never said she did prepare that meal prior to 1881. She didn't say what year she prepared the meal, but I assume it had to be after 1900 or so, if it was not until then that she actually met Billy.
I don't mean to be obtuse or offend here but have you actually read any of my comments or do you just think you can convince me of your alleged facts by repeating them a few hundred times?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 9, 2015 12:23:05 GMT -5
"Can you please explain how a 7 year old met Billy the Kid?"
Answer: I never said that happened. I assume you're talking about Martile Ables.
Wayne, I did not accuse you of claiming Martile met Billy the Kid when she was 7 years old. My response quoted a statement made by Jgaines, and i posed the question to Gaines and not to you.
"How could Martile have prepared a meal for Billy the Kid before his reported death in 1881"
Answer: Obviously she did not, but then she never said she did prepare that meal prior to 1881. She didn't say what year she prepared the meal, but I assume it had to be after 1900 or so, if it was not until then that she actually met Billy.
Your answer is based on several assumptions, and I do not agree with any of them. Martile prepared a meal for someone she thought was BtK. Pat Garrett did not kill BtK. John C. Abel knew BtK. Brushy Bill was BtK.
I agree that Martile met Brushy Bill, just as she told an El Paso reporter.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 10, 2015 17:13:06 GMT -5
You wrote: "Your answer is based on several assumptions, and I do not agree with any of them. Martile prepared a meal for someone she thought was BtK. Pat Garrett did not kill BtK. John C. Abel knew BtK. Brushy Bill was BtK."
Of course there are two ways to look at this. In my view, there is "evidence" that John knew BTK (a photo), and there is "evidence" Garrett did not kill BTK (lots of it), therefore there is "reason" to believe Martile met BTK and therefore "reason" to believe Brushy Bill was BTK. If I were the only person who thought that way it would be different, but there are many who do and try as you may, you won't likely change our minds.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 23, 2015 13:30:42 GMT -5
There are implied facts in the affidavit of DeWitt Travis. Census and cemetery records provide information about the life of DeWitt Travis. The WWI draft registration card of Elbert DeWitt Travis shows he was born 26 March 1890. Billy the Kid was killed several years before he was born. DeWitt never saw or met Billy the Kid. He believed Brushy Bill's claim that he was Billy the Kid. That means that the affidavit of DeWitt Travis does not support Brushy Bill's claim that he was Billy the Kid. DeWitt Travis further stated that he had known Brushy Bill for most of his life. DeWitt Travis and Oliver P. Roberts were both counted in the 1910 census of Van Zandt County. DeWitt's sworn statement that he had known Brushy Bill most of his life implies that DeWitt Travis had known Oliver P. Roberts most of his life. That means that Brushy Bill was Oliver P. Roberts, just as his niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon, and his other relative, Roy Haws, said.
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Post by Nik Oak on Jun 26, 2016 16:50:48 GMT -5
Are there any transcripts of what was said during the visits by Morrison and Brushy to the old aquaintances of Billy the Kid (Severo Gallagos etc.)? If there are I've never heard of them.
Surely there must have been a wealth of small time information in the way of facts, questions and answers; and I would imagine that whether brushy was believed to be Billy, or not, would largely depend on this sort of information.
It seems inconceivable to me that a three hour interview between people who have not met for many years would not ask questions such as "Do you remember when...." On the face of it is does seem as though Brushy must have faced questions like this and given convincing answers.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 26, 2016 19:42:24 GMT -5
I wish there had been a stenographer on hand when Brushy met Martile, Severo, The Jones Brothers, etc. I wish Morrison would have shared more detail about their conversations than just the assertion they discussed the old days. It was mentioned there were discussions in spanish and Morrison probably didn't speak spanish so maybe that explains some of it. I don't really know. But you bring up a very, very good point.
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Post by Mike Able on Sept 15, 2016 5:40:34 GMT -5
Do you know if there are any other records or Pictures of John C. and Martile Able around. I am trying to find out if they are any relation to me.
Thanks, Mike Able
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 15, 2016 10:09:30 GMT -5
There is a photo of Martile taken at the time of the interview with Brushy, at least I'm assuming that's when it was taken. If you haven't seen that, I'll try and send it to you. Let me know. Other than that, I can search ancestry for you. I'll see what I can find.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 15, 2016 15:24:41 GMT -5
"Do you know if there are any other records or Pictures of John C. and Martile Able around. I am trying to find out if they are any relation to me. "
Mike, John C. Abel and Martelia Bilberry Abel were the parents of 3 daughters, no sons. John C. Abel had previously been married. John C. Abel and his first wife were the parents of 2 sons. Elma (Elmer?), age 8 was in the 1900 census, but has not been identified in subsequent census years. Cefus (George Cephus Abels) was in 1900 and 1910 census records. George Cefus Ables, b. 17 Dec 1892 - 19 Apr 1966, died in Ohio and is buried in Franklin Hills Cemetery, Canal Winchester, Franklin County, Ohio. He had one son, John Wesley Ables, born 21 April 1918 and died 22 April 1992 in Columbus, Franklin County, Ohio. He is buried in the same cemetery as his parents.
The surname appears as Abel, Able, Ables, and Abels in various records.
Hope this helps.
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Post by WeaverJ576 on Jun 16, 2017 18:57:54 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller,
Buy the book "Billy the Kid An Autobiography by Daniel A. Edwards, it explains everything. William H. "Brushy Bill" Roberts was no doubt Billy the Kid. The photos presented in the book of a 27 year old Brushy Bill match exactly to the 21 year old Billy the Kid in the famous tintype. This is presented in the book and conclusively proven. I was a doubter too, but no longer. The book presents compelling evidence that Brushy Bill was indeed the Billy the Kid of legend. Mr. Roberts' narrative answers too many questions, explains too many things in a logical and precise manner, is corroborated by Deputy John W. Poe's book and the Las Cruces Sun, aligns with history in too many places, and simply makes the most sense than any other explaination ever put forth for him to not be Billy the Kid. He knew too much, too many things that only a first hand participant of the events of those days would. The instance which immediately springs to mind is that Mr. Roberts knew that, when Billy the Kid and the Regulators were surrounded in the burning McSween house, African-American soldiers backed up the Murphy-Dolan faction in an effort to bring the Lincoln County War to an end. He knew this in the 1950s when *nobody* knew that, even most of the scholars of the era.
Read the book and decide for yourself. Until you are willing to fully examine all of the evidence, your arguments are invalid. Remember Occam's Razor, the simplest explaination is usually the correct one. Mr. William H. "Brushy Bill" Roberts' explaination is the simplest.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 16, 2017 22:18:08 GMT -5
Brushy Bill: Colonel Dudley rode into town with those “nigger’ soldiers. Burns: “Two squadrons of Negro cavalry, with Colonel Dudley in command, came marching into Lincoln.”
Brushy Bill: “He (Colonel Dudley) demanded that that McSween stop the fighting.” Burns: “Colonel Dudley said, in a stentorian voice, ‘Mr. McSween, this firing must end at once!”
Brushy Bill: In the winter of 1879 we got together with Dolan and Evans and agreed to stop fighting with each other. Burns: Jimmy Dolan, Billy Mathews, Bill Campbell, and Jesse Evans made friends with Billy the Kid, Tom O’Folliard, and Charlie Bowdre in February 1879.
Brushy Bill: Dolan and Campbell killed Chapman in cold blood when they came out of the saloon. Burns: Dolan and Campbell, after leaving Juan Patron’s bar, killed Chapman.
Brushy Bill: Brady, Deputy Hindman, and County Clerk Mathews and maybe someone else were coming down the street from Murphy’s store on April 1. Henry Brown, George Middleton, and Fred Wayte were with me behind the adobe wall. Burns: Sheriff Brady, Deputies George Hindman and “Dad” Peppin, and Circuit Court Clerk Billy Matthews gathered in Murphy’s store before walking down the street toward the courthouse. Billy the Kid, Charlie Bowdrie, Tom O’Folliard, Jim French, Frank McNab, and Fred Wayte suddenly straightened up with cocked rifles from behind the adobe wall.
Brushy Bill: While the house was burning, Mrs. McSween begged Dudley to stop the fighting, but he said he did not have the authority to interfere. Burns: Colonel Dudley told Mrs. McSween he had no authority to interfere.
Brushy Bill: Harvey Morris, Samora, Romero, and McSween were killed as they left McSween’s burning home, and Salazar was wounded. Burns: Harvey Morris, Francisco Samora, Vincente Romero, and McSween were killed as they tried to escape the burning house, and that Salazar was wounded and played dead.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 16, 2017 22:20:00 GMT -5
Weaver, thanks for the suggestion. Before I spend $22.25, can you tell me the single most convincing fact in the book that is documented and can be verified?
I readily concede that Brushy Bill knew many details of events that occurred in Lincoln County, including the one that you cited, “The instance which immediately springs to mind is that Mr. Roberts knew that, when Billy the Kid and the Regulators were surrounded in the burning McSween house, African-American soldiers backed up the Murphy-Dolan faction in an effort to bring the Lincoln County War to an end. He knew this in the 1950s when *nobody* knew that, even most of the scholars of the era. “
“The Saga of Billy the Kid”, by Walter Noble Burns, had been published in 1926. Brushy Bill: Colonel Dudley rode into town with those “nigger’ soldiers. Burns: “Two squadrons of Negro cavalry, with Colonel Dudley in command, came marching into Lincoln.”
Brushy Bill: “He (Colonel Dudley) demanded that that McSween stop the fighting.” Burns: “Colonel Dudley said, in a stentorian voice, ‘Mr. McSween, this firing must end at once!”
Brushy Bill: In the winter of 1879 we got together with Dolan and Evans and agreed to stop fighting with each other. Burns: Jimmy Dolan, Billy Mathews, Bill Campbell, and Jesse Evans made friends with Billy the Kid, Tom O’Folliard, and Charlie Bowdre in February 1879.
Brushy Bill: Dolan and Campbell killed Chapman in cold blood when they came out of the saloon. Burns: Dolan and Campbell, after leaving Juan Patron’s bar, killed Chapman.
Brushy Bill: Brady, Deputy Hindman, and County Clerk Mathews and maybe someone else were coming down the street from Murphy’s store on April 1. Henry Brown, George Middleton, and Fred Wayte were with me behind the adobe wall. Burns: Sheriff Brady, Deputies George Hindman and “Dad” Peppin, and Circuit Court Clerk Billy Matthews gathered in Murphy’s store before walking down the street toward the courthouse. Billy the Kid, Charlie Bowdrie, Tom O’Folliard, Jim French, Frank McNab, and Fred Wayte suddenly straightened up with cocked rifles from behind the adobe wall.
Brushy Bill: While the house was burning, Mrs. McSween begged Dudley to stop the fighting, but he said he did not have the authority to interfere. Burns: Colonel Dudley told Mrs. McSween he had no authority to interfere.
Brushy Bill: Harvey Morris, Samora, Romero, and McSween were killed as they left McSween’s burning home, and Salazar was wounded. Burns: Harvey Morris, Francisco Samora, Vincente Romero, and McSween were killed as they tried to escape the burning house, and that Salazar was wounded and played dead.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 17, 2017 12:10:16 GMT -5
Texas Truth-Teller, why do you think it is important to go on and on about how Brushy and Burns stories line up? They're both right so why do you think it's so important? I could see if Brushy said Susan was playing the star-spangled banner while the house burned down, that would show he was copying. But him and Burns both reporting what actually happened is not a mark against Brushy. You really spend to much time and energy on SAGA. When in fact Brushy corrects many things Burns got wrong including putting events back into the proper order. And many nonbrushybelievers do believe Celsa was his sweetheart.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 17, 2017 15:26:31 GMT -5
Thain, I apologize for reposting the information that you had already seen. Apparently Weaver had not.
Weaver stated, "He knew this in the 1950s when *nobody* knew that, even most of the scholars of the era. “"
I believe Weaver's statement is incorrect.
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