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Post by DRock on Jul 14, 2016 15:24:37 GMT -5
I don't believe that Brushy was "The Kid". I've been studying this case for nearly 11 years. A couple of things stick out to me. The story of how "The Kid" was killed that night is a lie or cover up. The man who was shot that night was Mexican.
The man who was killed that night:
1. Spoke Spanish 2. 14 days after his death "The Grant County Herald" stated sources stated that the person who was killed had a beard and had stained his skin to look Mexican 3. Yginio Salazar's grandson was told that a Mexican man from Roswell was shot and that Pat Garrett was complicit in this entire charade. He said that it was Pat Garrett who helped Billy escape from jail (see Brad Meltzer decoded billy the kid) and that Billy gave Yginio a letter thanking Pat for the horse before Yginio returned the horse to Lincoln. 4. Poe had doubts about who was shot
In my opinion this went down one of two ways:
1. Garrett tied up one of Billy's girlfriends and ambushed and killed a Mexican man, mistaking him for Billy (I doubt this) 2. Garrett decided to help Billy after he was sentenced to hang as many people thought it was unfair that he should have been the only person to hang from the Lincoln County War
To me it looks like "Big Casino" and "Little Casino" may have fooled us all.
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Post by clydec on Jul 14, 2016 17:20:07 GMT -5
You may be right, so if not Brushy than who, John Miller?
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Post by DRock on Jul 15, 2016 11:22:13 GMT -5
Neither. According to Joe Salazar (Yginio Salazar's grandson) Billy sent letters to Yginio stating that he was living deep in South Western, Mexico. Billy was two weeks away from being hanged. I don't think he would have hung around New Mexico. He was trying to leave the territory before he was captured at Stinking Springs.
December 27th 1880: Interview with The Las Vegas Gazette at the train depot, shortly after his capture.
"But I found that there were certain men who wouldn’t let me live in the country and so I was going to leave. We had all our grub in the house when they took us in and we were going to a place about six miles away in the morning to cook it and then light out.”
"Billy the Kid"
Also we have to take a look at Pat Garrett here. What are the chances that 1. Pat Garrett would be out of town during Billy's escape and 2. A gun suddenly appearing in the outhouse for Billy. Joe Salazar's family stated that Pat Garrett loved the kid. Just read how he romanticizes him in his book "The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid"
Pat Garret use to be an outlaw himself. He was fired by Pete Maxwell for supposedly stealing some of his cattle.
Billy reportedly confirmed this himself:
''I’m outlawed and it wasn’t long since I was a law and old Pat an outlaw. Funny thing, the law.''--Billy the Kid to Heiskell Jones, 1880.
I wouldn't trust Pat Garrett. Do I think he shot the wrong man? No. I think something far worse possibly took place. I believe a Mexican ranch hand was murdered and passed off as Billy. Not sure he shot him but I do believe this man to Mexican. This is the reason why Pat didn't take a large posse to catch Billy. He just took two guys.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 15, 2016 11:53:35 GMT -5
In the mean time though before July 1881 he was blowing away anyone that even wore a hat like Billy. I think it is possible he had a soft spot for the kid, since Billy was seeing his sister-in-law and they both had nicknames for each other, but Billy wouldn't have been the first enemy (LEE) Garrett sat at the poker table with, that's just how poker tables were. I do not believe there was a gun in the outhouse, which is somewhat based on Nolan's analysis of the different ways it could have happened, although I'm glad more people are finally admitting that Nolan is not the final say on everything. There was also another story nmjames told me about someone said the Kid died in 1950 and was buried with the Tunstall family in England. I believe it may have been him or someone else that said they have seen census/death records or whatever that show Manuela Bowdre could not have been Jim Miller's wife. I think Brushy got everything right minus perhaps a gunfight on night of July 14th 1881 and his version of the escape is different from Godried Gauss 1890 interview.
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Post by SBeck on Nov 5, 2016 13:13:37 GMT -5
@drock, if you have studied the case for 11 years, could you share some more details of your insights?
Personally I don't believe that Brushy was the Kid. His life is too well documented, and I also think the pictures of him as an old man reveal that he was a lot younger than the requisite 90. And while some striking similarities with the Kid do indeed exist, there are also differences which IMO exclude that he was the Kid. The eyes are differently shaped for example and the pictures suggest that the overall coloring of young Brushy was darker - although that is not a certainty of course, given the quality of the black and white pictures. But the most visible difference is the mouth. The Kid had a fairly small and round mouth. Brushy's mouth is definitely wider and more stretched from side to side. The beard he sports in his old age pictures obscures that a bit. There are many other reasons why I don't believe that Brushy was the Kid. Commenters more knowledgeable than me have laid them out here at this excellently maintained site. But there are some mysterious aspects about Brushy's case nevertheless. The undeniable similarity with the Kid is one of them. Could he have been somehow related to the Kid or the Kid's family? I don't kmow if his documented life allows for that possibility. Then there is the question why he went through all the motions in old age and made his outrageous claim. Money doesn't seem to have played a role. Was he egged on by the somewhat shady lawyer (who wasn't even a full lawyer and who unfortunately terribly botched the documentation of the whole case)? Was Brushy inspired by all the attention for his friend "Jesse James"? Did he feel compelled to play along? Why did all those people sign the affidavits? Was it the similarity with the Kid? Is this a sign that the Kid might've survived - even if Brushy wasn't the Kid? Those who signrd the affidavits apparently thought it was possible that the Kid hadn't been killed at Old Fort Sumner by Garrett. Whatever inspired Brushy's claim, I think the story of the two old men who claimed to be famous outlaws is noteworthy and inspiring no matter what, and deserves to be told and examined. Although I do not believe in Brushy's claim, I have lingering doubts that Pat Garrett's story of how he killed the Kid, adds up. I agree with DRock's summary. I have also wondered if Pat Garrett had something to do with the Kid's escape from prison. It seems indeed awfully convenient that Garrett was out of town when it happened. Could Garrett have pulled the strings? If Garrett subsequently killed the wrong person, it's hard to say if there has been a collusion between the two of them before or after the facts. One thing is clear, though. It was in both men's best interest to keep quiet and for the Kid to stay "dead". If Garrett had helped the Kid to escape from prison, it would explain why the anonymously surviving Kid never had the desire to expose Garrett, and why Garrett might not have feared that the Kid might come back eventually and expose him as a liar. But the possibility that the Kid might not have been killed by Garrett doesn't allow the conclusion that Brushy must've been the Kid. I give credit to Wayne Land that he doesn't fall in that trap.
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Post by susan on Nov 5, 2016 19:53:02 GMT -5
In partial vindication of this story we have evidence from a number of sources that Billy the Kid did not die that night in Ft. Sumner. There were a number of people who did not believe the account given by Pat Garrett, partly because Garrett was not wholly reliable as a witness. One of these was a Mr. Poe, a cattleman who drove cattle from Coleman County, Texas, to Lincoln County. Poe was a cousin of the John Poe who was present when Billy was killed. Poe was interviewed by D.D. Sharp in 1938 as part of the Federal Writer’s Project. The interviewer wrote that Poe “doubts very much if Pat Garrett really killed Billy the Kid. For one thing he says that Frank Coe told him some six or eight years ago that he (Coe) could saddle his horse at sunrise at his ranch on the Ruidoso, near the resort there, and eat supper with the Kid at sundown.” It must be admitted that Frank Coe was an important witness. He knew the Kid well and had often ridden with him.
This is from Living Along The Ancient Way. I believe Frank Coe. Why would he lie. He was a successful rancher and businessman.
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Post by susan on Nov 5, 2016 19:56:32 GMT -5
In partial vindication of this story we have evidence from a number of sources that Billy the Kid did not die that night in Ft. Sumner. There were a number of people who did not believe the account given by Pat Garrett, partly because Garrett was not wholly reliable as a witness. One of these was a Mr. Poe, a cattleman who drove cattle from Coleman County, Texas, to Lincoln County. Poe was a cousin of the John Poe who was present when Billy was killed. Poe was interviewed by D.D. Sharp in 1938 as part of the Federal Writer’s Project. The interviewer wrote that Poe “doubts very much if Pat Garrett really killed Billy the Kid. For one thing he says that Frank Coe told him some six or eight years ago that he (Coe) could saddle his horse at sunrise at his ranch on the Ruidoso, near the resort there, and eat supper with the Kid at sundown.” It must be admitted that Frank Coe was an important witness. He knew the Kid well and had often ridden with him.
This is from Living Along The Ancient Way. I believe Frank Coe. He was a successful rancher and businessman and would have no reason to lie.
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Post by MissyS on Aug 6, 2017 3:48:46 GMT -5
In partial vindication of this story we have evidence from a number of sources that Billy the Kid did not die that night in Ft. Sumner. There were a number of people who did not believe the account given by Pat Garrett, partly because Garrett was not wholly reliable as a witness. One of these was a Mr. Poe, a cattleman who drove cattle from Coleman County, Texas, to Lincoln County. Poe was a cousin of the John Poe who was present when Billy was killed. Poe was interviewed by D.D. Sharp in 1938 as part of the Federal Writer’s Project. The interviewer wrote that Poe “doubts very much if Pat Garrett really killed Billy the Kid. For one thing he says that Frank Coe told him some six or eight years ago that he (Coe) could saddle his horse at sunrise at his ranch on the Ruidoso, near the resort there, and eat supper with the Kid at sundown.” It must be admitted that Frank Coe was an important witness. He knew the Kid well and had often ridden with him.
This is from Living Along The Ancient Way. I believe Frank Coe. He was a successful rancher and businessman and would have no reason to lie. Susan, Mr. Poe's interview is very interesting and his interview is also listed in the book "They Knew Billy The Kid, Interviews with old time New Mexicans" there was more to his interview, and what I found interesting is what Mr. Poe said about what happened after the shooting, he said no one was allowed to see the body of the man that was shot except The Maxwell family, Pat Garrett, John Poe, McKinney, an old Mexican woman and a woman that was supposed to have been Billy's mother that miraculously had gotten there in time from Silver City, Mr. Poe said it would have taken some six days to get word to her at Silver City and get her back again, he also mentions a man he knew named Perry Carney, who was the right hand of Pat Coglin who lived in Tularosa and received the stolen cattle the Kid brought, Perry Carney and also two Mexicans told him that the Kid was positively not killed, they knew this because Billy came and got a saddle after Pat Garrett was supposed to have shot him. Anyway If Billy's mother was dead who was the mother that came to the funeral? And the mentioning of only the Maxwell family that was allowed to view the body reminds me of an artwork I saw in a book, it was a photo of a painting or drawing of Billy The Kid's burial, it showed the four men that dug the grave, next to Billy's body and three women kneeling and maybe four other women standing and maybe five men standing at a kinda distance maybe 15 or 16? in attendance; counting the four that dug the grave, some of the men could have been Garrett, Poe, and McKinney? Maybe someone on the board can recall that artwork? Anyway Im wondering where Mr. Poe got the info about it? If he got it from his cousin John Poe?
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Post by susan on Aug 6, 2017 16:49:12 GMT -5
I definitely agree that could not have been Billy's mother. I must admit that I change my mind constantly as to whether Billy escaped death at that time. From what I have read, Pat Garrett was always in need of money and that would have been his motivation to kill Billy the way it was supposedly reported. I just read in a archived newspaper that Jesse Evans went to Sonora, Mexico after leaving Huntsville and it makes me wonder, if Billy did survive, did he also end up in Mexico for a while? Too, one of my questions has always been if Pete Maxwell was the informant who sent word to Pat Garrett and if Paulita was involved with Billy - that sounds like an exceptionally cruel act on his part. Too, I remember reading what Paulita said about Pat Garrett having to shoot Billy the way he did - that was the only way he could have apprehended him. I just think that the report of Billy's death was not truthful. If so, it sounds like Billy was exceptionally careless and I do not believe that. The art work sounds interesting.
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Post by Billy Believer on Aug 17, 2017 12:19:49 GMT -5
I think that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, that said, I have been wondering about something Brushy said. He says that he was shot and wounded the night Billy Barlow died in his place. But there is never any mention of the deputies or Garrett for that matter shooting at anyone else that night. Anyone ever hear of additional shooting the night Billy was supposedly killed.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 24, 2017 22:21:58 GMT -5
Billy Believer, as the years go on I believe more and more that he was indeed the Real Billy. When Henry J. Walker interviewed him he gave a different story about being shot across the head. Also, one witness heard two shots at about 12:30 am so technically he was killed on the 15th. Or somebody was. As Sonnichsen's book says this is the weakest part of Brushy's story. He said Barlow was killed on the back porch that night. I believe that story has been told more than once but the one I remember offhand is the one by Tip Mckinney, supposedly he told his family that Garrett killed the kid on the back porch. Frederick Nolan mentions this in the back of West of Billy the Kid in the bibliography notes, I'm not sure where else you can read about it offhand. So perhaps Brushy got some of the story right, or maybe the witness that night didn't tell the truth.
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Post by Billy on Mar 29, 2018 14:01:03 GMT -5
Can anyone please suggest some books to read on this subject?? It’s new to me and I don’t know where to start. Thanks
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Post by clydec on Apr 1, 2018 19:51:06 GMT -5
Alias Billy the kid, Billy the kid and autobiography, Beyond the Grave Billy the kid and the lost files.
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Post by ericbruce on Apr 4, 2018 13:17:16 GMT -5
We need to track down Doc and Marty Mccoy and see if we can borrow the DeLorean.
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Gary the former kid
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Post by Gary the former kid on Nov 3, 2018 10:29:08 GMT -5
I read an article before the internet blew up about how Pat ended up at the fort that night. This article asserted the marshal came looking for Garrett to come with him to the fort. In that conversation Pat was heard to say that Billy would not be there. Eventually he agreed to go. Does that not point to why they had to say someone said "You couldnt have shot Billy. He wouldnt be here! Pat made the statement after someone else made the shot. Then everyone calmed down and made a winning hand out of the mess they had been dealt.
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